Iraq: “Our Lord, surely, will hear the voice of good people”

Bispo Shlemon Warduni com dois representantes
da comunidade muçulmana no Iraque

Full transcript of the interview with Shlemon Warduni, auxiliary Bishop of Baghdad of the Chaldean Catholic Church. News feature, in Portuguese, here.

Transcrição completa, no inglês original, da entrevista a Shlemon Warduni, bispo auxiliar de Bagdade, da Igreja Caldeia Católica. Notícia aqui.

What brings you to Portugal?

The Aid to the Church in Need wrote to me, saying that they have these meetings, as propaganda for the churches in the Middle East, especially in Iraq and Syria. Our Patriarch was here three years ago, and now he was in Rome with the Pope, with all oriental Patriarchs, so he asked me to come here, so I came.

Violence in Iraq has become much worse over this past year. Why?

First of all we are so sorry about this violence, because it is terrible for all people in Iraq. But why and how? It is too difficult to know, because there are many causes. First of all, the elections that we will have in April; secondly, there are many interests; third there is this fanaticism between confessions and sometimes between religions also.

It has been some time since we hear about violence in Iraq against Christians. Has the situation improved?

I think in general it is better not to speak about persecution, but sometimes that is what we feel that, in those who are fanatics.

But the general bad situation is not only for Christians. The war, or the car bomb, or suicide attack, they don’t know who is a Christian or a Muslim, who is a child or an adult. When the bomb explodes, many are killed.

But sometimes we have this insistence with Christians: If you don’t become Muslim you will be killed, you must leave your house, or give us your daughters for our princes. A few years ago they took our bishop [Faraj Rahho] who died. I was negotiating between the Church and these people who kidnapped the bishop and the other priests. These people have no conscience, no God. They just want money, or then they don’t like Christians.

Once I was trying to liberate a priest and I suggested a sum of money, for example 4.000 dollars, and he told me, we cannot by a cow for this price. They don’t have the value of the human person. It is difficult, because they’re education is only that. They want money to kill others, why? We don’t know. Even back in Iraq they say, these people have no religion. For that we are sorry to have this situation.

But yes, it is better, over the past two or three years. But over the past three or four months we have had a bad situation, because of the explosions. Anyhow we pray. Also the Muslims are very sorry when they hear about the kidnap of a priest or a bishop, or about the tragedy at the Lady of Salvation church [where dozens were killed].

In the church and everywhere we talk about peace, reconciliation and forgiveness. Of course those who lost relatives find it difficult to understand forgiveness, but the spirit of Christianity is this and they understand and they try to live it, but many of them are leaving because of this situation. When we try and tell them to stay they ask, can you preserve my life or my family’s life? I say, I cannot preserve my own life, how can I preserve yours? But we trust in our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us.

I know the bishops have always refused to arm the Christians, but have there been any attempts of the people to arm themselves?

We have Assyrians, they have some weapons. We also have some guards. They became soldiers for the Government, or police, and they guard.

But in general, the arms don’t resolve problems. Even in our situation, it is more difficult with arms, than without arms. Because if they kill Muslims, there is the question of revenge, and they will come to kill, or get money. It is better not to have weapons, so as not to aggravate the problems.

Recently we heard the Melkite Patriarch ask “Does anybody hear our cry?”. We hear you cry, but many people ask… what can we do?

Many times I said that Europeans don’t care about Christians. If a small Muslim child is harmed by Christians in any country, all Muslims in the world come and cry “we must kill…”, “we must do…”. But when many Christians, bishops and priests are killed, the European Christians, or in general the Europeans who speak about our freedom, don’t do anything. They talk about human rights, but many of them are interests. In Iraq they talked about WMD’s, and they didn’t find any chemical weapons.

Iraq is a very rich country. Our Lord gave us richness, but we are very poor. Why? Because of buying weapons, and fighting. No peace. What is the reason? We hope that somebody from the world leaders understands the meaning of the church not wanting weapons.

But you are talking about leaders. What about me and my family, what can we do?

First of all, you can pray. We cannot do anything, but we pray also, with you. Our Lord, surely, will hear the voice of good people. The second thing is to pressure leaders not to go to war. For example, Pope Francis, said: “We must pray and fast”, and the majority of the people say it was a miracle of prayers and fasting [that helped avoid international intervention in Syria].

Many Christian leaders must act as Christians. Why are they afraid, at meetings like this: “You can end the war. First, don’t sell weapons; second, speak to Arabic leaders and ask them what they are doing; third, the terrorists, who are giving them weapons? These are things that can be done.

There are many different churches in the Middle East. Chaldeans, Melkites, Maronites, Syriacs, Armenians… and then all the different Orthodox churches as well… This variety may be enriching from a liturgical and spiritual point of view, but is there enough communication between the bishops? Is it possible to improve the coordination, have the Christians speak in one voice, without destroying this richness?

And we have protestants also. Especially those who came after the war. They think we are not Christians… sometimes they baptize our faithful…

The issue of the church is a little bit weak, because there is no unity among us. Not unity as in having just one leader or liturgy, but at least to be one as Our Lord said, to love one another as he loved us. Are we ready to love one another? Jesus gave his life for us, He sacrificed His life.

This is the first question. Our churches must come together in the heart, to love one another, to love the good of the Church of my Armenian, Syriac or Orthodox brothers, more than I love my own. In this case we will give a good witness to others. This could be our strength. This is the first thing, many others will come afterwards.

In 2010 there was a synod of Middle Eastern bishops. Two years later, in Lebanon, Pope Benedict XVI delivered the Apostolic Exhortation… What did you think of the text?

And since we have had a synod in Lebanon, also, talking about how we can live this document. Sure, it was very good. “Communion and Witness”, but many times, unfortunately, we talk too much but in reality do little, or even nothing. So we hope that the Holy Spirit, and especially for this year that ended today, or rather, that we have to live from here on, that we can have a good life, living our faith and witness with communion with others. Then, I hope, sure, there will be good results for all the churches.

Paulus Faraj Rahho, asassinado
por raptores no Iraque

At least two of the things that had been requested by the bishops were denied by the Vatican. I am thinking of the authority of Patriarchs over their faithful in the diaspora, and the ordination of married men to the priesthood outside of traditional territories… I have heard some Eastern Catholics say that things like these make them feel like second rate Catholics…

Sure, on one hand. These two things affect sometimes negatively. Why? Because our brothers can ordain many priests, as many as they want. But our catholic churches are almost captive, they cannot do what they want.

Slowly, I think these two things will be given. By Pope Francis… we shall see. The Patriarchs want this. Not so as to have married priests or not, but because we are not allowed to do it in the West. But sometimes we send over married priests and they do their job. The more difficult is the question of the authority of the Patriarch, but that also I think, through dialogue will be resolved.

Are you expecting any changes in this respect from Pope Francis?

For the future I cannot decide. But I say, we hope, with dialogue, with an open mind, with theological discussions, I hope something will be done about this.

There is a terrible situation in Syria. There are two bishops who were kidnapped and a priest as well. Do you have any hope that they will be returned alive?

Not just one priest, two or three, and many other people. But this question is very difficult, especially because of other countries. They must make efforts to be near each other, for forgiveness and dialogue, but many do the opposite. They arm the terrorists; they arm the government, so how can we have peace? But we pray, because we are children of hope, that these people are alive. This is all we can do, and we continue to pray.

O meu jihad é mostrar Jose Gomez ao mundo! E o teu?

Jose Gomez mostra como se lida com o flagelo dos abusos

Temos muitas notícias importantes hoje, para meditarem ao longo do fim-de-semana.

Começamos pelo Papa, que hoje publicou o seu texto para a Quaresma. Bento XVI fala sobre a relação entre caridade e fé, com implicações no terreno para organizações que trabalham no campo da solidariedade social. Escrevi um texto para ajudar a compreender isto que, para mim, será uma das grandes discussões na Igreja nos próximos anos.

A Igreja Caldeia já tem um novo patriarca e é um nosso conhecido. O Arcebispo Louis Sako, de Kirkuk, esteve em Portugal o ano passado. Na altura entrevistei-o e ele falou com franqueza sobre a dificuldade de se ser cristão no Iraque. Longos anos!

Duas notícias importantes dos Estados Unidos, de âmbitos muito diferentes. Obama voltou a ceder na questão dos contraceptivos e das instituições católicas, ao abrigo do ObamaCare. Resta ver se os bispos vão aceitar a nova proposta. Contexto aqui e aqui.

De Los Angeles, uma notícia que é uma autêntica bomba. O arcebispo Jose Gomez, que ocupa o cargo desde 2011, suspendeu o seu antecessor, o Cardeal Mahony, de quaisquer deveres públicos e administrativos. Tem tudo a ver com o escândalo dos abusos…

Mudando de ares. Uma interessante campanha muçulmana nos EUA quer mudar a conotação negativa da palavra Jihad. No Paquistão preferem a conotação mais violenta e ontem atacaram uma mesquita xiita.

O Cónego João Seabra esteve em estúdio na Quarta-feira à noite para dizer que a defesa da família não é uma causa confessional, mas de defesa da civilização.

Por fim, não deixem de ler o artigo desta semana de The Catholic Thing, ainda sobre o aniversário da legalização do aborto nos Estados Unidos.

Caldeus procuram Patriarca, Egípcio procura juízo

"Living in America"? Não nos parece...

Já tinham saudades da Sociedade de São Pio X? Também eu. Por isso ontem fiz um texto com o ponto da situação deste grupo em relação a Roma. Nos blogues especializados diz-se que uma facção dissidente poderá estar a preparar novas ordenações episcopais.

Confrontado com instabilidade interna que ameaça o seu regime, o que o Presidente do Egipto mais precisava, certamente, era que um conselheiro seu viesse a público dizer que o Holocausto foi inventado pelos americanos…

Boas notícias da Nigéri, a serem recebidas com cautela… O grupo terrorista Boko Haram propõe um cessar-fogo! Vamos a ver como é que a coisa corre.

A Semana Santa de Braga é candidata a Património da Humanidade! Um reconhecimento que poderá tornar ainda mais famosas estas celebrações tão marcantes.

Bento XVI diz que a fraqueza de Deus perante o sofrimento é apenas “aparente” e o Patriarca de Lisboa diz que todas as estruturas da sociedade se deviam fundar na justiça.

Os bispos da Igreja Caldeia estão reunidos em sínodo para escolher hoje um novo Patriarca. O anúncio formal poderá ter de esperar mais um ou dois dias… Estaremos atentos.

Por fim mais um artigo de The Catholic Thing sobre o aniversário de Roe v. Wade. Desta vez é Hadley Arkes que se dedica ao assunto: “O falecido Joe Stanton, de Boston, costumava dizer que mesmo que só conseguíssemos salvar uma ou duas vidas, estes enormes esforços do movimento pró-vida teriam valido a pena.” Amén!

I want to believe!

Mulder queria fazer parte dos 84%?

Anuncio-vos uma boa nova! Depois de um mês de interrupção regressam os artigos em português de The Catholic Thing. Esta semana Howard Kainz fala do mito da Superpopulação.

A propósito de nascimentos, na Irlanda fala-se em legalizar o aborto. Os bispos não estão contentes.

E vai em seis o Patriarcas que deixam vagos os seus tronos em 2012… Agora foi o Patriarca dos Caldeus. Não morreu, mas renunciou. Em Janeiro teremos substituto.

O que é que você faria se no seu país estivesse a decorrer uma campanha de inoculação contra a poliomielite? Se é amigo dos Talibans então é natural que a sua resposta envolva assassinatos a sangue frio de funcionárias de saúde… afinal de contas o que é a campanha contra esta doença terrível que não uma tentativa de esterilizar muçulmanos?

Continuamos com o ranking de notícias de religião de 2012 e hoje entramos no Top 3. Então em terceiro lugar temos a autêntica montanha russa que foram as conversações entre os tradicionalistas da Sociedade de São Pio X e Roma.

E por fim um dado estatístico. Pode parecer que não, mas saiba que mais de 8 em cada 10 pessoas no mundo identificam-se com uma religião organizada. Como dizia o outro "We are not alone!"

Arcebispo Louis Sako - Transcrição completa

For a short video version click here


It has been eight years since the invasion, and one year since the gravest attack on Christians, have things improved or have the media just stopped reporting cases?

The situation is ongoing. It depends on the cities. In Baghdad the situation has improved, but in Mosul and Kirkuk we have had cases. In September two churches were attacked in Kirkuk, but also many Christians have been killed in Mosul and kidnapped in Bagdad, Kirkuk and Mosul and only released after payments of large sums of money.

People unfamiliar with your history might wonder what several hundred thousand Christians are doing in a Muslim country…

We have been Christians since the end of the first century. We are the roots of ancient Christianity. There were many jews in what was then Mesopotamia and the apostles went to preach the gospel to the jews in the diaspora. The community is judeo-christian, even the liturgy is similar. In the 7^th century we had about 200 dioceses. Our forefathers took the gospel to China, to India, to Turkey and all over the region. When the muslims came in the 7^th century we were a majority, but Islam forced many people to convert because they believe that Islam is the completion of religions, the religion of God and the Koran is the only true book and Muhammad is the last prophet. Many others were killed and the others paid the tax, Jizya, and because of their qualifications they helped to develop Islamic society, many Christians translated the scientific and philosophical books from Greek and Latin into Arabic.

In the former regime we were about 1 million, but now, with the lack of security, we are about half a million.

Who is behind the attacks on the Christians?

There are three groups behind the attacks on Christians. Fundamentalists, most of which came abroad from countries like Jordan, Yemen, Egypt, Saudi Arabia. The Fundamentalists don’t accept others, especially Christians, and they want to build an Islamic state according to Islamic law as it was in the time of Mohammed. For them Christians are infidels and associated with Americans because they are also believed to be Christians and to be leading a crusade against Islam.

Then there are the criminals, mafias out to make money. They kidnap Christians and demand large sums. Last month three Christians were kidnapped in Kirkuk and released in exchange for 50 thousand dollars each.

When the victims know the kidnappers then they are killed, so that they cannot reveal their identities later on.

The third group are politicians. Two big political groups want the Christians with them so they attack them saying that they will not be safe without them.

Do you miss the security you had during Saddam’s regime?

In those days we had security but no freedom, everything was controlled. Today we have a lot of freedom and we appreciate it. We have everything now, the economy is flourishing, but the only problem is security.

Over the years you have witnessed so many attacks and episodes of persecution, are there any which stand out?

The attack on the church in Bagdad last year. We watched it on television. We were really shocked, because Christians were praying for stability in Iraq when they were killed. The two young priests had studied under me in the seminary when I was rector, so I suffered a lot as I saw that. But there are other cases in Kirkuk. A deacon was killed, so was an altar boy, days after the Holy Father’s speech in Regensburg. We also have cases of people who were kidnapped and tortured. A doctor, last year, tortured for two months, but he never lost his hope and his faith. He was left in the street, half dead, but recovered. He was a confessor. We live that each day. There are many cases, many difficulties, but we feel that we are supported and these problems deepen our faith and give us hope and trust.

You are here at the invitation of Aid to the Church in Need, what have they done to help you?

Siometimes we are disappointed, we hear statements here and there condemning the attacks but this is not enough. What we need is solidarity. Aid to the Church in Need visit us many times in Iraq to be close to us, they come during the mass and speak to people to encourage them to stay and persevere, but also to support small projects such as roads and water, generators, kindergartens, for the new villages in the north.

What can western Christians do to help?

The international community should pressure the Iraqi government to respect human rights. And they should also push for reciprocity. There are Muslims living in Europe who have all the same rights as the locals, sometimes more. And here we are in Iraq and we have no rights, even though we are indigenous. I think there should be reciprocity for Muslims to respect Christians and their rights. Also we need solidarity for local churches. We belong to the same body of Christ, here they are Roman Catholics, we are Chaldean Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Catholics, but it is the same universal church. Visiting delegations from bishops’ conferences support us greatly when they come to stay one week, visiting churches, speaking to young people, these are concrete actions. What we need today, because of the displaced people, is housing, jobs, services, charity should be lived out in deeds, not only in words.

Does the division amongst Christians make life more difficult?

No, we feel we are one church and ecumenism is lived in truth. The denominations are different, but in reality we are sharing with each other. Orthodox come to our churches. On Monday we had a mass for the anniversary of the attack in Bagdad. All priests came to our church, including Orthodox and Protestants.

We don’t feel separate, only in name, I don’t know why we are not united. We want a future for us in the Middle East, if we remain small churches we have no future, but if we are united in one strong church then we will have a good future and we can witness our faith.

The denominations are linked to the culture and history. Sometimes Muslims are shocked and do not understand the differences, we tell them we are just like them, they are also divided amongst Shiites, Sunnis and so on. This is human.

Does the fact of being Catholic make the situation worse, or better?

They don’t distinguish, we are all attacked, but because we are the majority we suffer more.

What would you do if a Muslim were to approach you and say he wanted to convert?

Officially it is not allowed, and it will create many problems. But as a bishop, as a Christian, I don’t have the right to refuse him, I have to find a way.

There has been talk of an independent or autonomous region for Christians in the Ninevah Plains, wouldn’t this be a good idea?

No. In that area, the Nineveh plains there are many villages but all together they are about 70 thousand people. This is a trap for Christians. We live all over the country, to be there as in a ghetto is very dangerous, and it is also against our nature and mission as a church.

How about arming the Christians, forming militias to protect themselves?

It is not normal for a Christian to use violence. Even the Muslims are always saying that the Christians are peaceful, forgiving. I think this witness is highly appreciated.

Just decades ago there was a vibrant Jewish community in Iraq, not it is all but extinct. Could that be where Christianity is heading?

If the situation continues in this way in the Middle East I think Christians will leave. We are now seeing in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, who knows in Syria and Iraq, Islamists are taking over. But on the other hand, they are destroying Islam with this islamization. Islam should be integrated into modern society. I always ask why they are afraid of modernity and criticism. If they believe that their faith is from God, such as we believe of Christianity, then the others can criticize, attack, we don’t care. If it is divine then God can protect himself. There is no future for Islam if they keep up this kind of integralism.

How do you convince a young Iraqi to stay?

It is not easy. The problem is when members of the family already live abroad, they lure them and attract them to leave. But we try to educate them about the challenges of living in the West. If we compare, it is better to stay home. True, there are many risks, but if we are aware we can balance and stay. But if they come to the West they lose their family values, there is a culture of pleasure, everything is about the individual. In the Middle East we have the family, the tribe, everything is collective, we cannot live without the family. The mentality, the culture, the language is very different. Many times young people think that the West is paradise, everybody is Catholic and goes to church… the reality is different. Our churches are full on Sunday, there is no room. When they get here they are shocked, but we try to educated them and when it is time for them to choose, they are free.

The Synod for Middle Eastern bishops took place just last year. Have there been any fruits?

I was the first to ask the Pope for a synod, during my ad limina visit I told him we are small churches and we need a synod otherwise we have no future. He said it was a good idea and it came to be. I admired the courage of the bishops who spoke very openly and courageously, but afterwards nothing was done. It is up to us to translate the message of the synod in our local churches. We are waiting for the exhortation, but I hope it will not just be a celebration of the synod, it should have an effect on our churches like the Arab Spring. A real spring, not just a formal spring.

It is up to us,  but we need the help of the Holy See and the Bishops conferences in Europe and the States, to help us because we need their support and experience, for us this is new. Our churches are still living in the past, our theology is classic, patristic, our liturgy is unreformed. We need to reform our structure, our dioceses, our liturgy and the formation of our clergy, and we cannot do it alone. We need priests and religious men and women to come and help us.

Speaking of the Arab Spring… Does it surprise you that the Syrian Christians seem to be backing the regime?

The problem with this Arab Spring is that the young people are launching slogans, but they need leadership. The leadership is Islamic. It is sad to say that. We are starting to see this in Egypt. Tunisia was very open, a secular country, but now the Muslim Brothers are ruling. I think that if these countries want to have a future, real progress, they should separate religion from the state.

They are two different powers. Religion is about truth, politics is about interests and many times lies. Maybe we can have a positive secular regime which appreciates the religious values without imposing a particular religion. Things will change, we respect Muslims, they can pray and keep their values, but they have to respect others as well. Our universe is pluralist, we need each other.

The Patriarchs of the Christian churches have been claiming their support for Assad, even the patriarch of the Maronites said that Assad deserved a chance. Aren’t you afraid that if the regime falls the Christians will be punished for being too close to the regime?

I was in Rome when I heard about that speech, and I was shocked about it, and the comparison of Syria and other countries to Iraq. They are totally different. The change in Iraq was imposed by a war from outside, in Syria and other countries it came from the inside. I think the role of the Church is to support the demands of the population for justice, freedom and not a particular regime, otherwise if things change Christians will be ostracized, they won’t be partners, and this is very risky.

As a Church we don’t support the violence, this is different. We are in favour of peaceful demands and demonstrations, for democracy. But what is democracy? Maybe we can help them understand. The democracy that they are asking for doesn’t work with Islam as a state religion. The official religion in all countries in the Middle East except Lebanon is Islam.

Maybe the Church can help people understand what freedom is, democracy, and open regime, not a dictatorship. We are there to balance, in Iraq we are balancing. They should do the same in Syria and Egypt, not support a particular regime.

I am calling on the Islamic authority [in Egypt] to be aware, they need Christians there, with their qualifications and open mindedness. They should not associate us with the west, because the West is not Christian, in the West religion and state are separate. They have to distinguish between us. We were their before their arrival, it is to their benefit to keep Christians there, in their home.  

Bispo Iraquiano chega hoje a Portugal

Está neste momento a chegar a Portugal o arcebispo Louis Sako de Kirkuk, no Iraque. Monsenhor Sako fará três conferências em Lisboa, Braga e Fátima. O programa está aqui.

Entretanto será entrevistado hoje por nós na Renascença. A reportagem estará disponível ao fim da tarde no site e em antena. Amanhã mandarei o link, mas quem quiser ler antes deve estar atento.

Ontem foi dia de Todos os Santos. Quem quiser ler, com um dia de atraso, uma reportagem sobre as origens da solenidade, veja aqui.

Hoje o Papa falou sobre o encontro do G-20. O Arcebispo de Cantuária também falou de finanças numa altura em que o acampamento às portas da catedral de St. Paul em Londres já motivou três demissões de sacerdotes.

Passando agora para o reino do bizarro… um padre ortodoxo foi ilibado, em Jerusalém, por dar um murro num estudante judeu ultra-ortodoxo… saiba aqui porque o fez.

E por fim veio agora a lume que Khadafi correspondeu-se durante anos com um florista de Nova Iorque… consta que o florista judeu e o ditador muçulmano trocavam cartões de Natal… enfim, palavras para quê?