Syrian nun gives "martyr's bullets" to Lisbon Patriarch

Sister Agnes Mariam de la Croix

The Patriarch of Lisbon was recently given three bullets which were used to kill Christians in Syria.

The bullets were brought by sister Agnes Mariam de la Croix, an outspoken Syrian Melkite nun.

According to the nuns, when jihadists entered the town of Maloula they went house to house. A young Christian lady was hiding with her family in their house and three men were outside to try and protect the home. When the terrorists arrived, she heard them demand that the youngest man declare himself a Muslim. He replied: “I am a Christian, I want to live like a Christian and die a Christian.” He was shot on the spot.

The terrorists then asked the other young man, a cousin of the first, and warned him “look at what happened to him”. He replied that he too wanted to die a Christian, and was subsequently shot.

The third man, an uncle of the first two, didn’t even wait to be asked, he just declared: “I am a Christian, shoot me”. And he was shot.

The woman, who had recently had a dream of Our Lady in which the Blessed Mother handed her three red flowers, then had a vision of Saint Anthony of Padua (born in Lisbon), protecting the rest of the family who, as it turned out, were unharmed.

The bullets used to kill the three Christians were salvaged by the nuns and three of them were now given to the Patriarch of Lisbon, for him to give to the shrine of Our Lady of Fatima.

Sister Agnes also decries the fact that Christians in the Middle East are afraid to speak up, whereas Muslims in Europe are free to do so.

In this interview, which you can watch here Sister Agnes speaks in French, and the video is subtitled in Portuguese.

"Most Christians accept Hezbollah"

Full transcript of my interview with his grace Archbishop Issam John Darwish, of the Melkite Archdiocese of Furzol, Zahle and the Bekaa. News report (in Portuguese) here.

Transcrição completa, no inglês original, da minha entrevista com o Arcebispo Issam John Darwish, da arquidiocese melquita de Furzol, Zahle e do Bekaa. A notícia respectiva está aqui.

You are here to speak on Religious Freedom in Lebanon, what is the situation in your country like?

First, let me thank you for welcoming me to this station, and thanks to the Church in Need for inviting me to Portugal to speak about religious freedom.

In the Arab world there are some difficulties in Religious Freedom. But I will start with Lebanon. There we don't have any problems, because we are free to worship in any religion. We have 18 sects and anyone is free to worship. The political power in Lebanon is divided between the 18 communities.

In Syria and in Iraq the constitution also permits freedom of religion, but actually, if you have a mixed marriage between a Christian and a Muslim, they must register it under Islam.

In other Arabic countries it is very hard to worship as you like. In the Gulf they have started to build churches, but for example in Saudi Arabia we are not permitted to identify as Christians.

The Arab spring did not advance anything in the Arab world, neither democracy nor religious freedom. But we hope, in the future, after the events in Syria and in Iraq, that we can have a transparent Islam, share our lives and be free to worship as we like.

At the moment the situation seems better in Egypt, though...

Yes. There is more peace now.

Last month I was in Egypt. I was invited by the minister of Tourism, to open the Holy Family Road. Jesus, Mary and Joseph went to Egypt, to 25 places, and the tourism minister chose seven places with the Orthodox Patriarchate of the Copts for tourism sites. Representatives of all the churches were there for the inauguration.

With the new president, and the new regime, it is more peaceful. They respect all religions and we hope that will continue in Egypt.

Lebanon is, as you were saying, a special case. What is the situation of relationships among different Christians? It seems that they are divided.

No, the Christians are not divided politically.

There are two parties, one which sides with the Sunnis and one with the Shiites. But it is not a religious divide, it is a political divide. There is a dialogue between the Christian communities and we live together as brother and sister.

In my town we celebrate the liturgy and the mass together, we celebrate feasts together, and in Zahle, where I am a bishop, the bishops meet every month and decide things together. There are no problems within Christian communities.

But as you said, there are two parties, one allied with the Shiites, one with the Sunnis. Does that weaken the voice of the Christians?

I don't think so because the mentality of the Christians is more democratic. The diversity in the Christian community is for the benefit of the country. That is why we try to avoid the war, we try to be part of the society and we like to be together. I am the head of the Christian-Muslim dialogue in Lebanon. I speak in the name of all the Catholics in Lebanon, we have good relations with the Sunnis and the Shias, we live together, we are together for each other's feasts, and we try to help those Muslims raise their voices against the jihadists, the fundamentalists, that we see in Iraq and Syria.

Bekaa Valley

Most of the threats to Christians seem to be coming from radical Sunni factions. Could the future of Christianity in the Middle East be tied up to Shia Islam?

I think we should be close to both, to Sunnis and Shiites. We are a bridge between communities and would like to play this role to bring them together.

Iran has a big influence in the region. What is the situation like in Iran at the moment?

I don't have the impression that Iran is radical. They are very open. I know a few Iranians, who have come to Lebanon, and I know the Shiites, they are very open now and more open to the Christian people.

Iran supports Hezbollah, largely through Syria. If the regime in Syria were to fall, how would that affect the balance of power in Lebanon?

It will be a big problem for the Christians in Lebanon and in Syria. We know that the Shiites are influenced by Iran and the Sunnis are influenced by Saudi Arabia. I think when the problems started in Egypt we started to have a problem in Lebanon and Syria. That is why last month I told a few ministers in Egypt to use their influence over the Sunnis in Lebanon, because I know that the Egyptian way is more moderate than the Wahhabis from Saudi Arabia.

How has Lebanon managed to avoid being drawn into the conflict until now?

From the beginning of the war I said in one of my speeches in Lebanon: “Be careful, the people in Lebanon will be influenced by the war in Syria.” And we are now... the jihadists, the Daash [Islamic State], the Al-Nusra Front, are now on the border of Lebanon. They are not far from my town, Zahle, they are in the mountains. And every day there is a fight between the Lebanese army and the Jihadists.

Also, Hezbollah defend, with the army, the border of Lebanon. But the Government has been very sensible, the Sunnis, the Shiites and the government, work together to avoid the big problem in Lebanon. I think that now the situation will improve, after the events of Tripoli, last week, where the Lebanese army removed the jihadists from the city and Northern Lebanon.

Lebanese Christians were the only ones who, during conflicts, organized themselves into armed militias. What lessons does that hold for the current situations of Christians persecuted in the Middle East?

I don't think we should have militias. We learned from the past that this is not the way for peace. The way for peace is only through dialogue between the communities. Weapons and arms are not helping to get peace. That is why all Lebanese parties are now against militias in Lebanon.

Bishops have been almost unanimous in saying that they do not want a safe-haven or independent country for Christians in the Middle East. In your opinion, however, should other communities like the Kurds have their own state?

Apparently yes, there is a country for the Kurds, but as Christians we don't like to have a country for our people. We like to be with everybody, because we are the salt of the society and we like to be friends with everybody.

Hezbollah soldiers in Lebanon

You were born in Syria… how has the civil war there affected you?

I still have family in Damascus. I am worried about the situation, but apparently Damascus and the big cities are now safer than three years ago, when the war started in Syria.

I call for the heads of state in Europe to stop sending arms to Syria and Iraq, to understand the problems better, to understand our way of democracy. We cannot have the European democracy. The Arabic world should start to think how they can have their own democracy, maybe in the near future we will find this way.

You say that European democracy does not work in the Arab world, but Lebanon has a functional democracy...

Half of the population of Lebanon is Christian, and the Christians are more adequate for Democracy and they like to have democracy. Even the Lebanese Muslims are apt to have democracy, because Lebanon is a unique state, the only state in the Arab world with a Christian president.

In Lebanon Hezbollah still have their own army and have resisted attempts to demiliterize. How do the Christians see the fact that there is this party in Lebanon with its own army?

Most of the Christians accept now presence of Hezbollah, because they have defended the Christian villages in Syria, like Maaloula. Maaloula was liberated by Hezbollah and other Christian villages in Syria also. That is why we now see Hezbollah as resistance against Israel and the jihadists in Syria, and especially against Daesh.

You said that it would be bad for the Christians if the regime fell in Syria. But do you see a future for Bashar al-Assad in power?

I would not like to see Daesh take the position of Assad. Assad, even with his faults, in Syria, is better than Daesh, Al-Nusra and other jihadists. At least we know that in his regime Christians are free to worship, to build churches, and the Government gave some land to help build their own monasteries and churches. I think that if we look between Syria and other Arabic countries, it is easier to live in Syria than other Arabic countries, except, of course, Lebanon.

"There is a place for arming Christians to defend themselves"

Manifestação a favor da criação
de um território para os assírios

Mardean Isaac defends the creation of a semi-autonomous homeland for the Assyrians in Iraq. This is the full transcript of the second part of an interview. The first part, about who the Assyrians are, is here. The news piece, in Portuguese, can be found here.

Mardean Isaac defende a criação de um território semi-autónomo para os Assírios, no Iraque. Esta é uma transcrição completa da segunda parte de uma entrevista. A primeira parte, sobre quem são os assírios, está aqui. A reportagem encontra-se aqui.

There were demonstrations today [Saturday, August 1st] all over the world. How many people took part? What is it you are asking for in these demonstrations?

Demonstrations took place in around 30 cities, in around 10 to 12 countries. In terms of numbers, around 40 to 50,000. Australia alone had around 6.000.

What we are asking for is, first of all, a recognition that what is going on is Ethno-religious cleansing. That is to say, in Iraq we have absolutely no protection, no security of our own, no legal or political recourse. We have simply been surrendered to the chaos which is taking place there, with nothing to stand against it.

Many of the signs you'll see point to a movement called #DemandForAction and also contain the phrase SafeHavenNow. What they point to is our desire to create a semi-autonomous region, within the Ninevah province where we can guide our own destiny, where we no longer have to be at the mercy of death squads, paramilitary groups, auxiliary forces, all other groups which have taken over Iraq, which have turned the Iraqi army into what it is now, which is nothing.

We want a region where we can live side by side with the other minorities which inhabit it, and where we can flourish, and where we can secure our own future in Iraq. That is what we want. However, we also exhibit solidarity with all our brothers and sisters in Syria, especially in the province of Hassekah, who are also undergoing terrible security crisis, and securing themselves against ISIS's onslaught.

Who would set up this province, who are you directing these pleas to?

This movement has been going on for a long time. It has really gathered momentum over the past 7 years. What is strange about what is going on now is that previously we were lobbying the Federal Government of Iraq to say "look, there is a region which Kurdistan covets and it’s in between the area which is definitely yours, and the area that is definitely theirs, and they have designs on it and we want it to become semi-autonomous.

So it was directed at the Federal Government, sort of against Kurdish designs, especially since Kurdistan kept putting off a referendum in the region in order to flood the area with more Kurds. Now all of a sudden the situation is very different indeed, that is to say, most of the plains have been taken by the Kurds. There is no reason to believe that they want to give them back, they have expanded their own territory by over 30%.

So in our protest today [August 2nd 2014] in London, in our demands, we said: Irrespective of who controls the plain, we want it to be semi-autonomous whether its Kurdish or Iraqi. Either way it will not pose a security threat to anybody, to say the least. To arm extremely disadvantaged groups like the Assyrians, the Yezidis, the few Mandeans, an absolutely extraordinary sect, the Shabaks and so on... these people are not interested in taking anybody else’s land, they simply want to secure their own.

We don't want a state, we want a part of Iraq, whether with the Kurds - we have a long and very complex relationship with them, we can certainly "do business with them" - or whether it is with Iraq, if they can get it together and expel ISIS.

Mardean Isaac

Interestingly the Kurds at the moment seem to be the ones who are best equipped to confront ISIS and defend the Christians in the region...

That's also interesting. There have been reports of fighting between the Kurds and ISIS today [August 2nd 2014], but they have so far had an implicit mutual enemy. The Kurds have taken what they want from Iraq and ISIS have taken what they want and they have allowed each other to do that.

Of course, with all these implicit deals, once these territories are secure now it’s uncertain what is going to happen. The Kurds have taken us in. I don't think they should be praised to much for that, we're talking about dealing with people like the Christians of Mosul who have been dispossessed of absolutely everything, they weren't even allowed to take watches or rings for God's sake. So the fact that the Kurds have set them up in shelters is... ok, fine.

But the Kurdistan Regional Government has a lot to answer for in terms of the way they treat us. They need to stop privileging building rights to Kurds, they need to stop confiscating our lands, all kinds of issues need to be worked out between us and the Kurds. But yes, certainly, there is a possibility of establishing an understanding. But the Kurds need to get out of their mode of insecurity, this mode of land grabbing and desperation to secure as much as possible, and ethnic hegemony. Its partially understandable why they are in that state, given their history and their antagonism towards Arabs and the State of Iraq, but they need to get out of it immediately and recognize that we suffered together in the North, we fought together against Saddam, our villages and our treasures were also destroyed, we have a shared history and they must recognize this. They must stop calling us Kurdish Christians. We have no interest in being called Kurdish Christians, we are not Kurds. And we deserve not only our full cultural, linguistic and religious rights, but also some degree, an appropriate degree of self-administration.

All of the Middle Eastern Christian religious leaders I have spoken too, and others I have read have been unanimous in saying they don't want a separate homeland just for the Christians. How far can this movement go if it doesn't have the backing of the religious leaders?

That's an interesting question...

I'll speak for myself. The position of the Chaldean church, especially their leader in America, is an outrage. His position is that because the Chaldeans inhabit a spiritual nation they have no particular interest in clinging to the territories they have in Iraq. Many statements have been made by Chaldeans that have deeply disappointed us regarding their attachment to Iraq.

As far as any religious leader who is ignoring the political reality must be criticized for it. We have absolutely no interest in being politically beholden to our religious leaders. If people want to go to church, affiliate themselves with whichever ecclesiastical institution it's their business. When it comes to issues of politics and history, I personally, and many other Assyrians, don't believe that the Churches should play a leading role, at all.

Autonomy, that's fine... but who would defend this state? Would it make a difference if you're all gathered in one place but there are still these groups that just want you gone? And on this subject, the bishops have been clear in saying that they don't want Christian militias, they don't want to respond to these persecutions with force. Is that your position? Is there a place for arming the Christians to be able to defend themselves in the Middle East?

Yes, I think there is a place for arming Christians to be able to defend themselves. To say that we don't want to respond to these persecutions with force is utterly baffling to me. We have no interest in doing anything with arms, other than protecting our villages. So in terms of the Church leaders who have a blanket position on these things, which I consider to be a politically cowardly one, I would simply like them to answer specifically as to what many people in the Ninevah plains need to do when they hear news of ISIS approaching within half a day.

Militantes do Estado Islâmico em cima
de uma Igreja em Sinjar, no Iraque

I've spoken to some of these people and they've gone to Turkey, where they live in a state of Limbo, because they are not Turkish citizens, especially when whole villages or communities are drained, they have no idea when they can return. Leaving is difficult, returning is difficult, their lives are completely suspended.

We're not talking about suddenly handing out guns to people, we're not talking about being irresponsible, and to suggest that we are, simply by recognizing the security problem is just bizarre to me. It's bizarre to anybody involved. Just go to Demand For Action, an initiative unconnected to any religious group or political party, its bizarre to them too.

What we need is organized, sanctioned, official security forces. Not militias, not squads of guys with guns, but people who protect villages and will put off attacks by looters and pillagers, which is what these groups are.

To even describe ISIS as an Islamic State is an absurdity. It’s a rag-tag crew of angry, stupid young men, who join together to go on a murder spree. It’s as if they are playing video games, that's how despicable they are. They gun people down wantonly... And there aren't that many of them. The Iraqi army should have protected us and they didn't.

So my question to all of our church leaders who are saying "we're Christian, we don't do violence", and so on, is, "what is the alternative?". That's my question.

Who are the Assyrians?

Mardean Isaac explains who the Assyrians are and gives us his perspective on the debate over Arab/Assyrian identity of Middle Eastern Christians. This is a full transcript* of the first part of an interview. The second part, on the possible creation of an Assyrian homeland, can be found here.

Mardean Isaac ajuda-nos a perceber quem são os Assírios e dá-nos a sua perspectiva sobre o debate acerca da identidade dos cristãos no Médio Oriente. Transcrição completa da primeira parte de uma entrevista, cuja continuação, sobre a eventual criação de um território para os assírios, está aqui.

Where were you born?

I was born in England. My father is an Iraqi Assyrian and my mother is an Iranian Assyrian.

Assyrian, what exactly does that term mean?

The term refers to an ethnic group who inhabit a contiguous region which is roughly correspondent to what is now described as Kurdistan, so South-east Turkey, North-East Syria, North-West Iraq, the Urmia region of Iran, and we are a non-Arab, non-Kurdish people, we speak colloquial dialects of Aramaic with some native morphology, even though our liturgical and ecclesiastical dialects are middle-Aramaic/Classical Syriac, we speak vernacular versions of those.

We have existed in those settings as a community for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Assyrian is a term we use to describe ourselves because we trace our ancestry and heritage to the inhabitants of that ancient civilization and we continue to inhabit many of its territories.

Are Assyrians Christians?

Yes. That is to say that they are almost entirely a Christian people -- I am not speaking to their particular beliefs, i.e. whether they are practicing or not. There are ethnic Assyrians who have converted to Islam over the centuries and have lost their identity and language. In recent memory, there are Assyrians who were forcibly converted to Islam and/or 'Kurdified' during the Assyrian genocide of the early 20th century. There is also a small number of Jewish Assyrians.

When we speak of Assyrians, we are not speaking of all Christians in the Middle East... Would Assyrians include the Chaldeans for example?

The Chaldean church is a Catholic branch of what is now called the Assyrian Church of the East. The first Church of the East Patriarch to enter communion with Rome was Yohannan Sulaqa in 1552. The Chaldean Church became a 'millet' of the Ottoman Empire in 1846. Chaldeans are Catholic, but ethnically Assyrian.

How about the maronites, for example?

The Maronites are obviously a Levantine people. Historically they have used Syriac, our classical language, but ethnically it depends what you mean. They belong to a different region, but it is tricky because many of them refer to themselves as Surayeh, which is hard to translate directly, but translates into Syriac -- or Syrian, in a non-Arab sense. So I would say there is a link in terms of a Syriac heritage, as well as a culture of martial highland resistance, but ethnically, directly, they are not the same as us, no.

I know that the term Assyrian is not necessarily embraced in the Middle East, there are many who are attached to an Arab identity. How peaceful is the term in characterizing Christians in the Middle East?

I think the Maronites have a very special place in the political history of the Middle East, especially in the XXth Century, that is to say, at the time of the Lebanese independence they were around 40 or 50% of the population. They spearheaded the independence movement, so their adoption of the Arab identity was the closest you could say to a majoritarian adoption of that identity. They chose to do it for the sake of the country, so to say, they wanted to align themselves with the countries nearby them and so on.

Iraqi Christian displaced by Islamic State

They don't call themselves Assyrian and over time, especially with the failure of our own national movement, which collapsed when the Ottoman Turks massacred us in 1915-1918, with the collapse of that movement the churches started to entrench themselves and try and enforce their own authority over their communities and distance themselves from a national identity.

I call myself Assyrian, I have many Chaldeans in my family who also call themselves Assyrian, we all speak Suret, which is a dialect of Aramaic with Akkadian elements, which we usually refer to in English as Assyrian, and I know countless members of the Syriac Orthodox Church also refer to themselves as Assyrian.

The Patriarch of the Melkite church, for example, is very emphatic about the Christians being Arabs just like their neighbours. Is that also a leftover of the Arab Nationalist movement?

Absolutely. The division, broadly, is between people who want to assert themselves independently of Arabism, and independent of the dominant hegemonic forces in the region, which are and were Arabism and more recently Islam. So when it comes to the Melkite Church, increasingly it is true of the Chaldean Church, this was true of the Maronite Church, although Maronite political parties have more recently begun to move away from an Arab identity, and during the Lebanese Civil War many groups, though ostensibly Catholic, refused to identify as Arabs. It has to do with whether the leaders of the churches feel they have to prioritize their congregation and their ecclesiastical authority on the Arab dominion, or whether they side with their people, in other words, they try and move towards a situation where they establish themselves quasi-independently.

Our Patriarch of the Church of the East wanted to establish an Assyrian State, under the auspices of the British, so that division between Arab and Non-Arab, has to do with that. But of course, when they describe themselves as Arabs it goes without saying that they are not "real" Arabs. They are not the Arabs of the Gulf, they don't belong to Arab tribes. The Arabism is a political movement which began in the Early XXth Century and under whose auspices they wish to go in order to save their own church and find a place for their religion in an Arab world.

During the Arab Nationalist movement, many Christians saw this as an opportunity and thought this was a chance to fit in and play leading roles, and many did. But with the failure of the Arab Nationalist movement, in practical terms, could it make it worse if they identify as non-Arabs?

It’s an odd situation. In the case of ISIS there is not a trace of Arabism in them. It’s a kind of bizarre international murder gang of Chechen and Welsh teenagers, and Afghans and all kinds of people. Of course they are preoccupied in a bizarre manner with what they call original Islam, but overall in terms of the discussions I have with Middle Eastern people my age, they find the ethnic aspect of Assyrians utterly baffling. They may discover with surprise that we don't speak Arabic, but broadly they simply see us as Christians and increasingly they see each other as simply Shiite or Sunni rather than primarily as Arabs.

Of course there are all kinds of tribal, geographical, local forces at work in all of these conflicts, but the area of broad ethnic identification is certainly in decline. And the regimes that supported that identification are collapsing. 


*A few corrections and minor alterations were submitted to these answers by Mardean Isaac in November 2014. I accepted these as they made no change to the overall tone or message of the original interview, and improved its clarity in some ways. In some cases they were spelling corrections to terms I had misheard during the interview.

“Not even the majority of the Sunnis are with the opposition”

Full transcript of interview with Osama Siblani, publisher of the Arab American News, on the situation in Syria. Story, in Portuguese, here.

Transcrição completa da entrevista a Osama Siblani, editor da Arab American News, sobre a situação na Síria. Reportagem aqui.

What is your view of what is going on in Syria?

The Syrian crisis has many layers. The thinnest layer, at the moment, is between the Syrians themselves. When the so-called revolution, or uprising started, in a city called Deraa (?) it was for reforms, democracy, but they were not asking for the overthrow of the Government.

Unfortunately mistakes from the Government’s side, and interference from outside powers which have their own regional agenda, have put their input into the uprising and immediately after that it started becoming militarized. Once it had been militarized the dynamic changed on the ground and it slowly became a conflict within Syria but with outside forces intervening all the time, more and more. This is the second layer, of the regional forces, with Iran, Hezbollah and Iraq on the side of the Regime and on the other side Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Israel had a silent role.

This layer also became important in the game and the whole dynamic had changed.

The biggest and probably the most important one, which has been always present but has become more and more prominent, having become the thickest layer, is the international involvement, with Europe, USA, Saudia Arabia, Turkey, Qatar and Jordan on the side of the rebels and on the other side Russia and China.

So there are the three layers, the Syrians, the regional players and the international layer.

So at this time it is no longer about freedom, reforms, overthrowing the regime and installing another one. It is a struggle to determine the future of the World Order. The Russians want to change how to do business in the world order and to flex their muscles in the Eastern Mediterranean. So this is where we are right now.

I don’t think Arabs, Arab Americans or even Syrians at this time are able to reconcile their differences and stop this war.

What do you think of the possibility of USA intervening?

I am against intervention, for many reasons.

The USA is not the policeman of the World. I don’t think it should be.

The USA is in financial difficulties, Detroit filed bankruptcy and is the first of many cities to do the same, because the country is going through a financial crises. We have 16 trillion dollars in debts and 1.5 trillion in budget deficit. We are cutting right and left and we cannot afford to lose more money, more troops, more men and women, and kill other people and have a bad reputation, considering what we did in Iraq in 2003, when we went in under false premises. We fought an immoral and unjustified war. We destroyed Iraq, we left 10 years later with the country still in shambles, and disintegrated, with more killings every day.

We killed millions and drove our economy into the ground. It is not in America’s best interest to intervene in Syria. It is not in Syria’s interest for America to intervene. If America intervenes militarily, on which side should they fight? If they fight Assad’s regime they will find themselves in the company of Al Qaeda and Jabhat al-Nusra, which we claim to have been fighting over the last 13 years.

So we are in a peculiar position, America is no longer the only power in the world. The world is changing, and it is changing in Syria, by the conflict in Syria. The USA can no longer dictate policies around the world. It is still the most powerful country, but others are rising, including Russia and China.

You don’t believe the Syrians can reconcile their differences. So how can this war end?

Probably it won’t end in the near future, because as I said it consists of three layers. The weakest layer is at the national level. I don’t think that the Syrians and the Arab countries are willing or able at this time to come together to resolve the situation, because it is far more spread and the regional interests of non-Arab countries, such as Israel, Turkey and Iran are heavily involved.

So I believe that we have to start at the top. We need to start by having an American – Russian agreement, and this will be an umbrella for a regional agreement. They cannot force it on the regional players, because they also have an agenda, so they need to bring Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran and Israel into the mix and try to find a solution at the regional level, that the international umbrella will cover.

Once this is done I believe the local layer can be resolved as quickly as anybody can imagine. Because all the players are financed and supported by regional and international powers, so once the international and regional players come to the table with an agreement, then the Syrians themselves, even if it is not acceptable to them will have to accept it.

Of course it remains to be seen who will have the upper hand on the ground at the time. That local player will perhaps be the local winner of the war. So there are too many components, it is very complicated, it cannot be resolved immediately and there is a lot at stake economically with the gas supplies, the pipelines, supply to Europe, how this will affect the Russian’s gas supply to Europe, which is the lifeline of Russia. How this will affect the industrial revolution in China, which depends heavily, up to 70% on Middle Eastern oil, how is this going to affect Europe in the long run, and Israel and the United States? All this is shaping up at this time, and unfortunately the ones who are paying the bill here are the Syrian people.

Do you imagine a future for Assad in a post-war Syria?

It depends on who will have the upper hand on the ground. I believe that Assad has proven, so far, that he has a formidable machine on the ground. There were some defections but they were insignificant for his army, his diplomatic and governmental branches are still robust and functioning. In this last crisis he has shown that a leader can make a decision quickly and abide by it, whereas the opposition are disintegrated, they have no central command, they are not able to make decisions, their loyalties are divided among their sponsors and supporters.

At the end of the day, in politics there are no feelings, it depends on who can deliver on the ground. Bashar Assad has proven that he is the strongest player in Syria, and when you are the strongest player. And when you are the strongest player you are not eliminated. It does not make sense to win and have them say “now you have to leave, you won, you fought, you paid all these sacrifices and now you have to pack and leave”. It doesn’t make any sense.

Do you believe that Assad was responsible for the chemical attack?

No I don’t.

First of all, I don’t know. I am the publisher of a newspaper, I have connections, I have met with several congressional leaders, to find out what they have. I did not get any indication from the congressional leaders I met with in the past few weeks. Nobody gave me any evidence. They have no evidence that Bashar al-Assad’s troops did that. In fact, we are hearing more facts coming out, like not all the people gathering in the hospitals were the casualties of that particular attack.

So I believe it has not been proven. We do not know what happened, we don’t know what kind of chemical weapons were used [interview recorded before UN’S final findings], I wanted to wait for the UN to come out with their findings, and again there is a major problem with United States intelligence and British intelligence, because they have fooled and lied to people in 2003 and they lost credibility and even their own people don’t believe them anymore and the world does not believe them either. They went to war on false pretence, where are the weapons of mass destruction? We have no answers to all these lies. Colin Powell holding the chemical agents, and such things.

I don’t believe the regime would use chemical weapons, for a simple reason, just logic. I don’t have proof, but I know they were making progress on the ground, scoring victories and taking over villages. So why would someone who is making gains on the ground use chemical weapons in order to aggravate the situation and get the west to intervene?

Also, the Syrian regime had accepted a UN commission to enter Syria and investigate previous acts of chemical attacks and allegations. They had just arrived in Damascus, so who would strike with Chemical weapons while a UN committee is sitting in a hotel in Damascus? It doesn’t make sense.

Plus, the third reason, is because the regime has a very organised structure that prevents something like this from happening. On the other side there is a chaotic situation and the loyalties are divided all over the place, and there is a major player who was introduced recently, Bandar bin Sultan [member of Royal Hhouse of Saud], who holds the whole issue of the opposition from the Saudi side, and some reporters have indications that he has given the opposition some chemical weapons or agents.

These are all assumptions, I have no proof. I am only using  my own analysis to look at the situation, to see who would benefit from this, the one who is losing on the ground, the one who has been asking for an American intervention, knowing that Obama had drawn a red line [in the case of use of chemical weapons]. They were trying to provoke the USA and bring them into the battle field, and they almost won, we were on the brink of war.

But fortunately we had cool heads in Moscow, Putin proved himself to be more worthy of the Noble Peace Prize than Barack Obama, unfortunately. Now the military solution is taking a back seat, the diplomatic solution is now what everybody is talking about, and that makes me happy.

Siblani fala a um grupo de manifestantes pró-Assad

Within the community in America is there also a sectarian divide?

I do not believe that most of the Sunni in Syria supports the opposition, it just doesn’t make sense.

Maybe not all the Sunnis support the opposition, but most of the opposition are Sunni…

First of all lets look at who is fighting the regime. There is Al Qaeda, the Wahhabis and the Muslim Brotherhood, which are Sunni. And who is supporting them? Turkey, run by the Muslim Brotherhood and Saudi Arabia, which is Wahhabi. So if you look at it this way, then yes, the majority of the opposition are Sunni, but the majority of those fighting for the regime are also Sunni.

Now maybe the forces that are actually making progress on the ground are not Sunni. I don’t know, I don’t know if the Alawites have special divisions or not. But I know that there is the Baathist party, and that there are socialist movements in Syria that cross the sectarian line. I know that they have forces and militias on the ground and that they don’t have religious affiliation. The Baathist party crosses all lines.

Christians in Syria, in Egypt, they want the government, they want stability. Look at what happened in Egypt. Immediately after the instability 72 churches were burned in two days. This is what is happening in Syria too. So under the Assad regime or the Mubarak regime, before, and under the Sisi regime know, the situation is under control and the Christians are more comfortable with the situation. I am not saying they are against democracy, but nobody is really respecting the democratic process anyway.

Aleppo and Damascus are majority Sunni, and the rebels were not able to get into Aleppo in the beginning. When they did get in to Aleppo and started the process of destruction, most of the people wanted the regime to come back. I am not saying that the Sunnis in Syria are in love with the regime, but they are definitely not in favour the chaotic situation in the country. They want change, but they want evolution, not revolution, not destroy and then build, and kill, but to change slowly but surely towards a democratic regime.

It has been proven that democracy is not a pill you can take. It is a process and a culture that you have to grow. Nobody can send a missile with a warhead of democracy. So we have to be careful when we start to talk about Sunnis and Shias. Is this a perception? Yes it is. Are there Sunnis opposed to the rebels? Inside Syria and outside Syria, yes. Here in this community, yes. But are there Sunnis also with the opposition, yes.

The minorities always stand with the Government because they want protection and they do not want the majorities to take over and they have seen what they have done in other areas, especially in Egypt and Tunisia. They want to be protected by the regime. Bashar Al-Assad is Alawite, but his wife is Sunni. I really don’t think that the struggle there is Sunni – Shia. I think that it has many shapes. One of them is that the World Order has to be changed. There are other powers… They may not be as powerful as the US, but they are willing to challenge.

But the countries supporting the regime and the opposition, here there seems to be a clear sectarian line…

At the regional level the countries that are supporting the regime… for example, the Government in Egypt is now supporting the regime…

Because of the Muslim Brotherhood?

Because of the Muslim Brotherhood, but at the same time the blood between Qatar and Saudi Arabia is deeper than between them and Iran. Also what is happening between Turkey and the United Arab Emirates, there is a real struggle there. What is happening in Egypt has nothing to do with Sunni and Shia. Algeria, for example, is Sunni and is supporting the regime. They have interests that they have to take into consideration with the Saudis, but they voted against the strike against Syria, they voted against kicking Syria out of the Arab League.

So I do not want to draw these lines with a knife, but at the same time I do not want to blur them to the extent that I look silly. They exist, some people are trying to play this card and it is very obvious that the sectarian line and tension has been played for a long time. Some forces in the region wanted this to happen. I hope that what we have seen in Lebanon, that the majority of the Sunnis may be standing with the Saudis, with the March 14^th, but also there are 30 to 40% of the sunnis who are not with the March 14^th and the Saudis. So there is a blurred line. We have to see that this is a struggle, it is a war, and in a war you use all your weapons, including the sectarian and there is a ground that is fertile for the sectarian struggle, and it is being used.

I don’t think that there are many things in common between the shias of Lebanon, Iraq and Iran. You’ll find, if you look back in history, that it is not true. The Shia in the Arab world are more nationalist, they looked at Nasser, and at Khadafi at a younger age, and Arafat, they never were in the fold of the Shah of Iran, even though he was Shia.

The historical differences between Sunnis and Shias are 1400 years old, they are not something new. Why have they surfaced now? Because there are people who are playing with this, really feeling it and trying to use it for a different goal. So far they have failed and I hope they do fail, because this is a very dangerous thing to play with.

Nasser

You were born in Lebanon?

I was born in Lebanon and came to the USA in 1976.

And you are from a Shia family?

I don’t like to identify myself, because I don’t feel this way. I don’t even feel Lebanese. I have always been a pan-arabist. Look at this picture behind me? It is Nasser. He is more important to me than my father. I don’t have a picture of Hassan Nasrallah, for example [leader of Hezbollah], and I could if I wanted to. I have grown up with Nasser’s ideas that there is one Arab nation and that we have common causes, grounds and denominators. I don’t believe in sectarianism. I am a Muslim and I happen to be from the Shia family, but I don’t believe in any of this.

I don’t even believe in differences between Muslims and Christians. I believe what Imam Ali, son in law of the Prophet said, “A man is either your brother in religion or an equal to you in humanity”. So if you are not my brother in religion you are my equal as a human. I truly believe this. I truly believe that as humans we have more in common among us than differences. And religion and politics sometimes gets in the way.

Ver também: The Arab-American Community in Michigan e Interview with Sawsan Jabri.

"Everyone in Syria is at risk, not just one family"

Full transcript of interview of Sawsan Jabri, who coordinates opposition to Bashar al-Assad in the Detroit area of Michigan. Story, in Portuguese, is here.

Transcrição integral da entrevista a Sawsan Jabri, membro da oposição ao regime de Assad na zona de Detroit, no Michigan. Reportagem aqui.

Could you tell us a little about your activities?

I am an active Syrian-American, trying to help the revolution in every possible means. Trying to organise events, spread the word about what is happening in Syria, contacting the activists inside, getting information from the ground to the media here.

You grew up in Syria?

Yes

When did you move to the US?

1998

In Syria were you already against te regime?

As a big family we were clearly affected by the regime. At the time there was no way to express that we were against the regime, because we would end up in a bad situation.

Syrian citizens at the time were classified. I was considered neutral, neither against nor with. This was the situation of most citizens at the time. If I applied for a job, it would be more difficult to get, I had to be better than the competition.

You lived and worked in Damascus?

I worked in Damascus, I was a physician with a masters in internal medicine from the University of Damascus, and I was a teaching assistant at the same university, in pulmonary disease, and I worked in many locations and hospitals.

Have you been able to work as a doctor in the US?

I passed the exams, but since I got married and had children I have not been able to work here. I got a degree from the University of Michigan and started teaching.

Do you believe that toppling the regime is a solution for Syria?

For sure, 100%. It is long overdue. Assad should have been toppled a long time ago. I feel that it ruined the whole country. The economy, the general situation, even the natural resources. One of the countries that suffers most from desertification is Syria. It hurts me to see my country of birth going in to a natural crises, not only a humanitarian, medical and economic, of course there is no freedom of expression and this is even affecting the natural resources. Every possible way the country is affected by the regime.

Syria was always known as a country where minorities were protected. Some of the minorities are worried that if the regime falls they will be persecuted…

This is propaganda. Since the first week of the revolution the regime suddenly started talking about the sectarian issue. I think the regime is trying very hard to focus on this issue, the sectarian crisis and fear. We always lived with Christians, Alawite and Shiites and every possible sect in Syria, with no problems, so why are we suddenly afraid of sectarianism?

It is strange to me the emphasis on the fear of the minorities that the coming regime will have an impact on minorities. All the massacres that there have taken place have been against the majority, the Sunnis. I cannot remember any massacres or killing of Alawites or Christians… So there is no need to fear something that has not happened. They are talking about possibilities, but why are we worried about what might happen and not worried about what has really happened. There is evidence of massacres by Alawites against the majority, but there is no proof of massacres by Sunnis against any minority. It is strange propaganda and unfortunately people are buying it.

You are Sunni?

Yes.

But do you know of members of minorities who are also against the regime?

We have Christians and Alawites with the revolution, also Ismailis, Druze, from every group. This is Syria. Before talking about minorities let’s talk about Syria. I don’t care about people’s sect, all I care about is if they are Syrian.

There is a large Syrian population in Michigan. Are the majority in favour or against the regime?

The majority are against the regime, but not many people are active and participate in the rallies, talking to the media. Not many activists, but a majority of the Syrian community are with the revolution and increasing in number. But we cannot estimate, it is not clear. The regime says they are with the regime, we say they are with us. It is chaotic.

So you believe that the regime was responsible for the chemical attack, and you think there should be an international response?

Absolutely, 100%. Since the day after the attack we have been in contact with the activists and confirmed it. Now the UN, USA, Europe, all are convinced it was the regime that committed the attack. There must be an international response against the Assad Regime, not against Syria, we want to differentiate between the two. This is not acceptable. It is the killing of 1500 people in one hour. It is a massacre in large scale and can happen again. If he did it once he can do it again. There must be a response against Assad.

Is your family still in Syria?

Yes.

Are you worried that your actions here could have repercussions on them back home?

Maybe, anything is possible. But we have to raise our voice. Everyone in Syria is at risk, not just one family, everyone is at risk because of Assad being in power.

Ver também: The Arab-American Community in Michigan e Interview with Osama Siblani

As a realist, there is nothing to do, as a Christian there is everything

Pe. Nawras Sammour

Transcrição integral e no inglês original da entrevista ao padre Nawras Sammour, responsável pelo Serviço Jesuíta dos Refugiados (JRS) no Médio Oriente, que se encontra na Síria. A entrevista e respectiva reportagem são da autoria de Matilde Torres Pereira.

Full transcript of the interview with Fr. Nawras Sammour, head of the Jesuit Refugee Service (JRS) in the Middle East, currently in Syria. Interview and news item by Matilde Torres Pereira.

What is does your work entail?

I’m in charge of the work of JRS in the region, Middle East and North Africa, which means I’m in charge of the coordination of the JRS work in Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan. So we have projects in different countries, working with different nationalities, refugees coming from different countries.

But mainly now because of the Syrian conflict, it’s been the most important [situation], as well as the Iraqi refugees in Jordan, Syria, Turkey, and refugees coming from Sudan and  Saudi Arabia, those countries have many problems.

So you have people coming from all around the Middle East and also from Africa?

In Jordan and Turkey, yes. In Lebanon and in Syria our work is a little bit with Iraqis, because we started working in 2008, the first project we had was after the Iraq crisis. Now the main work in all countries is with Syrians, but we also get those who are in trouble, like Iraqis, like Sudanese.

How is the JRS dealing with this massive influx of refugees at the moment? Do you have means in the field to help all these people?

In Syria, we started dealing with the Syrian crisis and with the big number of displaced people within Syria, we started very small, with local solidarity, for instance, but it’s not enough at all. And then we are supported by the Church, Caritas, other organizations; and the Society of Jesus.

Now we are able to do something, but compared to the volume and size of the crisis, I could say it’s a small drop in the ocean. The crisis is huge, we are talking about millions of people who are in need. So yes, we try to do our best, work, volunteers and the staff, so far in Syria we have 500 staff and volunteers, from different communities, and we work for everybody and with everybody, in coordination with other associations and foundations, based on the principles of humanitarian work, which is neutrality, impartiality and working with civilians.

Based on these principles that you have, how difficult has it been to keep safe during the course of your work? Since the beginning of the conflict, I imagine that things have been harder and harder to cross borders, to travel, I imagine it hasn’t been easy at all.

Actually, yes, that is our main concern, the security of our people. When they go around visiting families, we can have mortars, we can have bombs sometimes, so far, thank God, we didn’t lose anybody except two friends who came as volunteers to help in Damascus, they got caught in a blast of a car, in the center of Damascus, and it was by accident.

But yes, I would say the main problem is security. For us it’s a conviction, to work for everybody and with everybody, regardless of background or whatever, but it’s a kind of guarantee, because since we are neutral, we are not stopped, we are respected by everybody, and people know that we work for helping those who are suffering and without any background or idea beforehand. People really appreciate it.

So it’s an advantage for you to be Christian?

Yes, because they know we don’t have an agenda, but it’s not because we are Christian, it’s because our people, who are from different religions, and communities, they are convinced of our mission. So they are Muslim, but they do it with a profound conviction. We are appreciated and respected.

So you’re saying that there’s a real network of solidarity between different religions, basically people that just want to help people who are suffering?

In our project yes, in our network, the Syrian Red Crescent, with other foundations, in diferent areas, with civilians also. We don’t work with other different civilian groups, that’s not our work.

Have you, in the course of your work, found reasons to hope that even if you are working within a drop of the ocean, that you are helping to make the daily life of Syrians a little bit better? Is it easy to keep going, psychologically, in the middle of this conflict?

We are really tired. All our volunteers, all our staff, all our friends, we are really tired.

Because when I talk about a drop in the ocean, it’s about something like 30,000 families we help with direct impact, it’s not a small number, it’s something like 250’000 people.

But it’s still small, because at the end, I only help covering some needs for people.

Whether it’s about food, whether it’s about items, our work with children, for psycho-social support, those activities, sometimes yes, it can help with medical support, but the need is huge.

So the network that we have to cover all the facilities, its huge, but compared to the size of the problem, I’d say we are never going to be, and we are never going to pretend to be, the saviors.

Does the work of the JRS in the field involve, do the volunteers get spiritual preparation?

Actually, we used to have some counseling, spiritual and psychological for helping those in need, but now we really don’t have enough time. It’s useful to be in the service of our own people, our own friends and volunteers, it’s a pity, but the pace of events, the velocity, the speed, it’s very illogical, so we are not always able to stay in the same region. That’s why we are so tired. I would say yes, our people are tired.

Now they just came back, all of them, from holidays. We stopped activities for two weeks. I asked them to go to their own village, to be somewhere else. It was good. In Lebanon we tried to have a guesthouse for our people. Just to help them recover a little bit, to take a fresh breath.

Now it’s very tense, with the chemical weapons. We are waiting to see the consequences at the beginning of next week. We are going to restart our activities. So I would say it was a kind of holiday. If we see someone who is really tired, we send them home. To get away from the pressure. We had spiritual exercises last year that were good, but this year it was impossible to find time. My own spiritual exercises I did it last night, it was my holiday. It’s an inner battle.

These families that the JRS are helping, the least someone can do is try and find solutions to small daily problems, because, as you said, the pace of things is changing very quickly. Have you seen signs of hope in this crisis, or is it hard to see how this is going to develop in the future?

In a very, very realistic way of seeing the reality, I would say, in a very rational way, there is nothing to do. Really nothing to do. But that’s in the realistic way. As a Christian, I would say there is a lot of things – not a lot – everything to do. Everything should be done. Everything should be redone.

From that point of view I would say yes. We are in our place and we are trying to make a difference, to make a change, without saying that we are the best. That’s the reality, we are trying to do our best.

And for me, to see the young people, our volunteers, from different religions, communities, different social belongings, cultures, ethnicities, and they are able to work together, and because of the crisis they somehow found it in their own life a capacity of being a human in service to others and with others, that’s great. It gives a lesson to others.

Where there is an abundance of sin, there is an abundance of grace. So yes, from that point of view, from faith, I would say there are a lot of signs of hope. Especially our volunteers, they are very committed, very generous.

And the hope I can see in the eyes of children, and their tendency to be creative, in spite of all difficulties. In the middle of a drama, the children are playing, are even studying. I can see hope.

Politically speaking, I would say there is nothing to do, but in spite of that, we have to do everything. Absolutely everything.

Father Nawras, you are from Aleppo, is that right?

I’m originally from Aleppo, but I am based in Damascus, and I go around different countries and cities.

So you are seeing something happen in your own country, you are not somebody from the outside. I imagine that for you it is especially difficult to see this happening to your brothers and sisters.

Exactly. I used to work with Iraqis, refugees in the past, before 2011 in Syria, God knows I was trying to do my best for helping and doing my best to accomplish my mission.

The mission given to me by the Society. But now it’s something different. It’s about my own people, it’s about my family, it’s about my friends, about my country, about my history. The feeling is different. I would say that in the past I was a little partial. But the feeling now is about my own life. My own life.

How do you view a possible intervention by western powers? Will this help Syria, or will it make the whole situation worse?

It’s good if it ends the violence. It’s not going to be the solution. I’m not able to say that it could bring a solution. It could finish a problem. Not for a long time. I’m convinced, this is my deepest conviction, if there is a solution it should be political, through dialogue.

It’s not about war. That’s not going to make a difference. Whether by the West or by the East, I couldn’t understand that it could be a solution. I couldn’t imagine that Syrians could hope that a solution could come from an outside force. It’s a foreigner doing the work in our country, I couldn’t imagine that.

The work the Pope has been trying to do with leaders of government in the Middle East to try and open a way for dialogue, do you think the Pope can help?

One of the paradoxes of our postmodern society is that everybody thinks that the Church has something to say and to do. I would say the opposite. But when it’s about problems, yes, I could see that. The Church always has something to say and something to give to people as a source of hope. This is the Gospel. And the Gospel says this is the moment for us Christians of Syria to answer: are you a believer or not? Do you believe in God or not? So you believe in a world divided in problems? This is my faith, my credo if you like.