"The cities can be rebuilt. But children who have known nothing but war, that’s more difficult"

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Fr. Fouad Nakhla, a Syrian Jesuit who works with displaced people in Damascus. Fr. Fouad was in Portugal for a conference organised by JRS - the Jesuit Refugee Service.

Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista com o padre Fouad Nakhla, um jesuíta Sírio que trabalha com pessoas deslocadas em Damasco. O padre Fouad esteve em Portugal a convite da JRS - Serviço Jesuíta para os Refugiados. A reportagem que foi publicada no site da Renascença está aqui.

You told me you are from a small town North of Damascus. What Church do you belong to?

I am Greek Catholic, Melkite.

The town where you grew up, was it mainly Christian?

No. Around 10%.

So, more or less the same proportion as the country.

Exactly.

When did you feel a vocation to become a priest?

Actually, after high school I went to Aleppo, and I did my studies in Aleppo. And there I met the poor people. I was working and studying, and then I thought, well, what should I do after that? And when I met the poor I began to think about my future, what would make sense for me? I went to a Jesuit Center, Saint Vartan, which is where JRS started in Aleppo - now it is destroyed - and I started to work with the Jesuits, and there I thought maybe this way could bring more meaning for me. So I went to spend one year with the Jesuits before entering the society, in Homs, with Fr. Frans van der Lugt, who was killed in 2014, and then I decided to join the society, so I joined in 2002.

At this time Syria was in peace, nobody could imagine the Arab Spring, as it came to be known, what was life like at the time? Especially between different religious communities?

We can say that at that time we were all living together, there was no difference between religion, between rites, or even between cities. We could find work. Life was not easy, but it was stable.

You became a Jesuit, you did your training in Paris... Where were you when everything started to crumble?

I left Paris in 2012, and the last year was very hard, and then I went back to Damascus in June, 2012.

So by now, things had already started. And you had family in Syria?

Yes, for sure. All my family was in Syria.

They were not among those who left? Were they all safe?

They did not leave the country, but they left the city for about 8 months. Then they went back, and now they are safe.

When you went back, did you start working with displaced people straight away?

Yes. Because it was the main activity, and that was where I was most needed. So, when I went back, in 2012 I went straight into the project, in Damascus, and I was responsible for this project for two years, from 2012 to 2014, working in the field. A lot of change happened over these two years.

So, what is the work of the Jesuits currently in Damascus? Because we hear of them working with refugees, we imagine, normally, in refugee camps, but in your case it is mostly people who fled from other places in Syria to Damascus?

That's right, because it is very difficult to work with IDPs without camps in the city. It is very different from the work with the refugees in the camps. It was very difficult for us in Syria to work in this situation, because we were all affected, and all our team was affected also. JRS started in Syria in 2008 to help with the Iraqi refugees, and it was very difficult for us to be in the same situation and to encounter this suffering among our own population, seeing our cities destroyed, it was very hard. So, when we started, we started with people who were coming from those cities, which had been destroyed, but who wanted to help their own people, they couldn't stand to not do anything. That is how everything started in Syria, especially in Damascus.

The work with IDPs started in Damascus. When the first displaced arrived, it was from a neighborhood around Homs, and they were living in the streets. There was nowhere to go. When we started it was with the distribution of sandwiches and water, with a small team of volunteers. Then we started to organise this work. At the beginning it was only with some donations from people in Syria who wanted to help, then it grew, and grew, and we had many projects at this time. We had distribution for food or non-food items, health support, and then we began to work more specifically with women and children, running some workshops, and fortunately we had begun JRS in 2008, so in 2012 we had the structure to help them further.

Actually, at the moment, we have only one project for the psycho-social support for the children. We work mainly with children who are not attending school, but now most of them are going to school, but they had been away for two or three years, so they don't have the capacity to follow. So what we do is help them to catch up and to continue with their studies.

And you work with people from all communities?

Since the beginning we have been helping people without asking where they are coming from. We seek out the suffering people and we help them. That is what we do.

Speaking of the children, this has been going on now for almost 8 years. We have now had a whole generation of children who have not known peace. What does this mean for the future of Syria?

I think this is the most difficult situation that we have. The destruction of the cities... They can be rebuilt. But for the children who have now known anything other than war and violence, that is more difficult.

We have two groups of children. The children who grew up in the city, in the country, who suffered a lot, being displaced. They have a lot of trauma. And most of them have no education, they were out of school for many years, and they grew up with this situation. They have to work. Most of the children we are working with are working, they have jobs, sometimes very risky jobs, so they have to deal with that. Somehow they grew up too early, they take the responsibility for their family, even if they are only 10 or 11, and they try to cope with all of this.

The second group is the children who grew up in the camps. I don't have details about that, but I think it is also a very hard situation. They have lost contact with the country, with the cities, so they don't even know their cities from before. So for both groups it will be very hard for the future. And we all know that the future of the country depends on those children. What we are doing now is trying to build the future through those children.

This work is, obviously, so important. Does the regime help you? Do they let you work and not bother you? What is the relationship?

What we do is to help people, and since we are helping people we are not taking any position. That is why we can continue to work until now.

I asked about what this means for the future of Syria, how about for the Church? Has it affected vocations for example?

I don't have statistics, but even before the crisis the vocations were already in crisis. The numbers of people wanting to join the church were already very small. I think it is the same now. I think we have noticed some improvement in that respect, over the past two or three years, but it is still very timid, in terms of numbers of people wanting to join religious societies or the church.

And then, many of the Christians have already left the country. The percentage now is not the same as it was.

Do you have reliable figures?

No.

Many Christians lived in and around Damascus and Aleppo, which are now fully controlled by the regime. As you said, many others have left. There are many still living in areas dominated by the Kurdish led Syrian Democratic Front. Do you have contact with them?

We have some contacts, because in the East of Syria, in this region controlled by the Kurds, we have some contacts... Well, life is difficult for everyone, everywhere. The conditions are different from area to area, but I can say that most of the Syrians inside the country now are in need, and they are suffering a lot. It is not an easy life. Now it is becoming safer, but still, the prices are very high, and there are a lot of challenges.

The Christians I have spoken to in the SDF controlled area speak of a project for Syria which would see decentralization, each community having a say, including the Christians... It seems that most of the anti-regime opposition has been defeated, and the regime and the SDF will emerge at the end. They have refrained from attacking each other, mostly, do you think there may be a conflict in the future, between them, or will they manage to work out an agreement for peace?

It is very hard to estimate and to imagine what things will be like in the future, because in this situation there is a lot of misunderstanding, and a lot of coming and going... One day you are friends and the next day you are not, so it is a little bit difficult to imagine.

But what I really believe is that if we want to build a new future for Syria, we can't do it in a federal way. I believe that we can build a future if we keep the unity of the Syrian people and the country. How it will be done, if it is possible or not, I don't know. I don't know what the future holds, but this is what we believe and we are working for that.

Do you have brothers and sisters?

Yes.

I know that before the war, at least, families with only one child were not required to do military service. Did you?

I would have had to do it, but I didn't, because I joined the Jesuits.

But your brothers?

Yes, of course.

During the war?

I am the youngest, so they did theirs before, in 1991 and 1998.

The idea that we have in the west is that most of the Christians support the regime, in these conflicts that there have been. There are exceptions, I have spoken to a few, but most tend to be guardedly in favour of the regime. Is this a correct perception?

It is always very hard to generalise. But as a Jesuit and as JRS, we are always outside of these positions. We are not in favour or against, we are with the suffering people, and we are working for that. That is our position. But still, it is very hard to generalise.

When I asked you about a possible conflict with the SDF, you said it was hard to guess the future. But now that it seems like most of ISIS has been eliminated, and even the FSA, and Al-Qaeda linked groups have been pushed away and are now in areas mostly controlled by Turkey... How do you see the future for Syria now? Is it looking better than it was a few years ago?

I don't know how to answer this question, it is too hard.

Al-Qaeda and Isis, these are ideologies. They are not only groups, they are ideologies. They could be defeated, for a while, but they are ideologies. If we don't work on the root of these ideologies, it is useless. And we can see what has happened. Al-Qaeda was defeated in Afghanistan, for a while, but the ideology is still around, and it becomes more and more general.

So it is not white and black... You have to be more delicate on this kind of position.

So we have seen them being militarily defeated, but your concern is that the ideology remains among some of the people.

Yes, and it is easily reignited. That is why it is so difficult.

I believe in peace for Syria, and we are all working for that, and it is only possible if we work for reconciliation with people. Because used to live together, and we can live together again. That is what I think, and what I believe. But it is only possible if we start to work for reconciliation.

You did a Master's in Conflict Resolution, which I imagine is very useful... Can there be reconciliation without forgiveness?

Forgiveness comes at the end, it is a process, it doesn't just happen. It could come at the end, and there are a lot of steps before forgiveness, especially forgiveness in politics, which is not something very usual. So that is why I think we have to start working for reconciliation as soon as possible, hoping that at the end we will reach some kind of forgiveness, otherwise it will be too late.

Speaking of forgiveness, is the understanding of forgiveness and its implications, the same among different religious communities?

During this crisis we have seen that what brings people together is not words, but the suffering, the pain, and when people meet each other and realise they are suffering as much as me, if not more, that makes the difference, and that makes me see the other as a Human Being, not as an enemy, or just another person, no, it is somebody who can suffer, and who suffered more than me, possibly. Experience can talk, more than words. Words can't do anything. We can make all the sermon's possible about forgiveness and love, etc., but if we are not experiencing that, it is not possible.

When the USA bombed military targets in Damascus, recently, there was a joint statement from the Patriarchs of the Christian Churches in Syria. Is it fair to say that the leadership of the different communities have the same position in their vision of Syrian and outside interference?

I don't know how to answer that. But what we can say is that it is not fair to bomb in this way. Whatever the situation. And it is not right.

The problem in Syria is that now the crisis is no longer a Syrian crisis, and that makes all the people angry.

Was it ever just a Syrian crisis? There was always outside interference, no?

But now it is too much. It is very harmful to see that everybody is bombing and they don't care about people's lives. People are dying everywhere, and life has meaning on all sides, and bombing in this way is not fair.

The division of Christian voices, is this a problem?

We don't feel that Christians are divided.

Sure, there are many rites, but we are all Christians. It is not the divisions which matter.

Now, what we have to do is to help the Christians to be part of the country, and not outsiders. That could help for unity in the future, and that could help bring them to have a role in this country.

So on the ground one does not notice this division among the different traditions?

Actually no. We have many centers and churches around, and we receive people from all rites. We don't ask, it’s not a question that matters in the country, because we are used to this, to being very different. It is somehow difficult, but also very rich. We enjoy it. When you have seven different masses, in different rites, it can be confusing, but for us it is very rich and wonderful.

What do you do among the Jesuits? Do you celebrate one rite?

Actually we have the privilege to celebrate all the rites, as Jesuits. It is a great and very beautiful privilege. I am ordained in the Melkite rite, but I can celebrate in Maronite, or in Copt, or in Syriac and in each church, so we have this privilege.

All Jesuits, or just in the Middle East?

I think in the Middle East. I have no idea if others can do the same, but at least we can.

Fr. Frans van der Lugt

You mentioned Fr. Frans van der Lugt, Fr. Paolo Dall'Oglio, as well... What do these names mean to you?

Well, for Fr. Frans van der Lugt... He is a model for all of us. His example to choose to stay with the people who were suffering most, until the end, and to share their lives until his death, for me, personally and, I think, for all the Jesuits in the region, is a model, a big witness for us.

His life, and his death, give us a lot of strength to continue, and also a lot of hope, to continue and to believe that even among suffering and the darkest of situations, life is more powerful and God is present everywhere. That has helped us a lot.

Paulo Dall'Oglio is also a big voice, and also one of us. The first mission of his monastery, Mar Moussa, is to promote peace and dialogue, and it is still going until now.

Has their death and example given fruit for relations among communities?

For sure! And very often we meet people who we don't know, and they talk about Fr. Frans, his example and his way. Some new him, some didn't, but only heard about him. So we have a lot of testimonies and a lot of people are talking about him and his life.

For us, Fr. Van der Lugt is still alive, so many people talk about him, we feel that he is still with us. Because his life continues to inspire our life.

Saydnaya: "We have no reason to believe mass hangings have stopped"

Lynn Maalouf

Full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Lynn Maalouf, from Amnesty International - Lebanon.

The news report, in Portuguese, can be found here. Amnesty's full report can be found here. 

Your report mentions that 13.000 people may have been executed. How did you calculate this number? Is there a margin of error, could the real number be even higher, or perhaps lower?

What we say is that the number could range between 5.000 up to 13.000, and this is based on an estimate, based on the information that we gathered during the course of the investigation.

Basically, what we did find out, from the interviews that we conducted, is a systematic process of extrajudicial killings that were happening once to twice every week. So we base our calculations on that information and on the information that every time there was a mass hanging it was for groups of between 20 and 60 people. That is how we reached this estimate of 5.000 up to 13.000 people who may have been killed.

We are calling for an independent investigation into these mass hangings to establish the facts.

How did you reach the people interviewed? Are they mostly people who fled Syria, or were the interviews conducted in Syria?

Amnesty International does not have access to Syria, we haven't been in there for quite a long time. So all of the interviews were conducted in Southern Turkey, mostly, and some in Europe and elsewhere.

So they are all based on interviews with people who fled Syria. All of them are either former detainees, there are also former judges, prison officials or prison guards who used to work at Saydnaya at the time that we recount the evidence, the findings that we have, as well as experts on detention and other organisations we collaborate with.

As far as you know, are these mass executions still going on?

We don't have any information about this. The information we have covers the period of 2011, going to 2015 and that is when some of the key witnesses giving us the information stopped working in Saydnaya prison stopped being there physically.

So we don't have any information that this is still going on, but what we do say is that we have no reason to believe that these hangings have stopped.

Living in Beirut, are you afraid of repercussions from the Syrian state or allies?

Amnesty International regional office started operating here this summer. We don't have any reason to... We haven't had any threats, so far, and there is no reason to stop the work that we are doing.

What we do is that we document these facts and then issue recommendations. Whether we issue it from Beirut or from London, it's the same. We do hope to engage with the relevant authorities to address the recommendations that we have in a meaningful way.

But other organisations before us have published reports that are more damning than this report and there have not been any security concerns that we are aware of.

As far as you know, is it only the Syrian Armed Forces that are involved, or is there also involvement of allied militias, as we know there are many fighting side by side with the army?

Now we are talking about violations that are taking place in Saydnaya, a Government controlled prison. We are saying that these systematic practices could not have happened without the knowledge of the highest levels of authority.

But as far as we know there aren't any militias operating in this prison, nor allies of the Syrian government operating there. But we are calling on the allies of the Syrian Government, namely Russia, Iran and now the United States, to exert any pressure they can on the Syrian government to allow independent monitors into the Syrian prisons.

“The rebels brought the war into people’s houses. That is their strategy!”

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my recent interview with His Beatitude Patriarch Gregory III of the Melkite Church. The news reports, in Portuguese are here and here.

Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha recente entrevista a Sua Beatitude o Patriarca Gregório III da Igreja Melquita. As reportagens estão aqui e aqui.

You were telling me that the other day on your trip to Lebanon there were only four checkpoints, whereas before there would be 12. Is the situation in Syria improving?

The first big tragedy was in Homs. Now it is peaceful in Homs and the people have returned there. They are reconstructing their churches in Homs, in Yabroud, in Qusayr, in Nabek. This is positive.

Around Damascus there are still battles. My home town Darayya has now been liberated, but was totally destroyed, including two churches and all our people's houses.

Maaloula also has been liberated and the people, most of them, returned. We have about 125 or 130 families back and we are building for them not the whole house, but one room per family, which means that they can be at home even in a small place, without having to pay rent.

Damascus itself was always peaceful, but you had daily rocket attacks, sometimes hundreds of rockets per day, killing, destroying, it depends. But despite that, life goes on.

Just today [21st of October], we had rockets and our Cathedral was hit. Not much damage, just a little. This was the fifth time our Patriarchate in Damascus was hit by a bomb, but despite this we remain.

Now the big problem is in the North of Syria and in Aleppo, which means the border to Turkey and Iraq and to Jordan are closed now. This tells you where the belligerants are coming from, from Jordan, Turkey, Iraq, but because Iraq is weak now, and not under the control of the Government. This geographical description shows us how the war is. The war is against Syria, in Syria. The Holy Father said there is a third world war going on.

Now the worst problem is in Aleppo. We had a meeting of bishops of Aleppo, we wanted to have it in Aleppo, but because of the situation we were obliged to have it in Damascus. They told us that there used to be four million people in Aleppo and now there are one million. The others are displaced, not necessarily outside of Syria. There were 150 thousand Christians in Aleppo, but now there are maybe 30 thousand.

All the churches of the different communities are destroyed, more or less. The people are in need of food, light, water... But they are still there.

Around Damascus there are belligerants, but the army is advancing slowly.

Now our problem is really how to get people to stay at home. Emigration is the biggest danger for the Church in the Middle East, not only in Syria. Syria, Lebanon are all under this influence, even Jordan. In Iraq, from around 1 million, or perhaps 800 thousand, the Christian population is only around 350 thousand now. In all of Syria, 55 thousand Christians displaced, inside or outside Syria, 50% of doctors are out. This is hemmorhaging of the Syrian society, Christians and Muslims alike.

The future of Syria is very problematic. You have around three million children without schools, these are the clients for ISIS in the future. That is why we are very keen to work for the children in Syria, in the schools, and to rebuild schools. My own school was destroyed, two thousand children were left with nowhere to go. Everything was stolen.

This is a very big tragedy, but in spite of this we have so much hope. You can't believe how the people are crowded in the churches, especially for Lent. Every day our churches are full. We have youth movements; our congregations, women, men, young people, are filling our churches with social and pastoral activities. I don't understand how the people react this way. Inspite of the fear and the imigration, this is a complex situation of hope, of power, generosity, fidelity, trust in the Lord and in the future.

Darayya

Obviously the whole world is watching Aleppo and there have been many accusations against Russia and the regime because of the bombings. People are calling for a ceasefire...

First of all, the Church is for reconciliation. Already I wrote a letter in 2013 saying that the only way for the future of Syria and the church is reconciliation. So we are apostles for reconciliation, for peace, for dialogue, for reconciliaiton inside the society, not only for belligerants. This is our situation, our position.

We are also working with the children. We had an initiative to gather 1.2 million signatures of children for peace, an 8 meter long sheet with words of children for peace. We went with all of these documents to the European Union in Brussels and Geneva, to speak abou the future, we were the messengers of the children.

So this is the real situation and position of the Church, rather of the Churches! We have three Patriarchs in Damascus. Greek Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox and myself, and several bishops in Syria. All of them have a common vision regarding the situation, the government, the complot of this war, and so on.

For example, Darayya, which now has been liberated but is destroyed, before the destruction the people were happy, working, developed, and everything. A rebel group entered and made life impossible. They subdued the civilians; the civilians were under their control. Who has the responsibility to save these people? Who is responsible for the citizens? If the rebels are taking my house, who will kick them out?

The Government might destroy my house... This is what happened to a house of my relatives*. It was destroyed because a family came from outside and they rented a house near him. But it was an arsenal for weapons. The government shelled the house, and the house of my relatives was destroyed.

The same happened with churches. When the belligerants came to Homs, in the midst of the Old City of Homs, where the churches are, they turned the churches into their strongholds... What to do? So you can say that most of the churches were destroyed by the government. But why? Because they were no longer used as churches!

Monastic life in Aleppo

For example, the very famous monastery of St. Bachus and Sergius, in Maaloula, it was a central stronghold for the revolutionaries, the belligerants and for ISIS. What to do? The belligerants brought the whole war into the houses, in the old city, that is their strategy and that is the problem. Why, in Europe, are they blind to say that the government is targeting these structures? Yes, its true, but why? I can say this from my own experience, the same is happening in Aleppo now.

The civillians in the rebel held area of Aleppo, are they being used as human shields?

All of them! This is the whole strategy in the whole five years of war. Starting with Homs, Maaloula, my own town Darayya, the people were taken as shields to defend the rebels. That is why the civillians were killed. They were not allowed to go. Just like in Mossul now, not even the priests were allowed to go. They had to be there in order for the Government not to shell.

Now they can ask for ceasefires, but what to do next?

Would a ceasefire just drag this situation on? Would the best solution be for the Government to end the siege as quickly as possible, by taking the rest of the city?

A ceasefire is always an act of mercy. We are in the mercy of God. Everything in life is compromise. Even relations between husband and wife are about compromise. The same here with your enemies, you have to have compromises to protect the lives of the civillians. We have to think about that.

The policy of the church is to alleviate as much as posisble this very harsh time of the civillians.

Russia is seen by many Western countries as being part of the problem, criminals bombing civillians. When I speak to Christians from Syria they always have a very different idea of the Russians. What is your view of the Russian involvement?

If I am in danger, and you come to help me, can you help me without me? Without my consent? Without my advice? Without my collaboration?

Please, USA, come and fight! But with Syria and with Russia.

Let’s not do politics. Let’s speak in a simple way, like simple people. Come together Russia and America. Together. The European Union is no longer important, a shame, but the truth. If the USA and Russia came together with Syria in one month's time ISIS would be overcome. I am sure.

What is ISIS? It is a myth. It is an instrument of evil. Of a battle of interests. That is ISIS. It is nothing, not Islam, nothing at all!

Now Syria has become a supermarket for superpowers. Where are these interests? In Russia and in America. If they are ok and have common consent about their interests, where their respective profits lie, the war will end.

Everything is an instrument. Even the fighting between Shiites and Sunnis is historical, but now it is an instrument. Even the killing of Christians is an instrument. Nothing to do with the so called goal of the revolution. What can anybody in Syria bring that is different from what was already done? It was not too bad, not too good, but it was enough.

Who can build something new? The so called opposition are from the same school as the ones who are there. So they can bring nothing, nothing can be brought.

Reconciliation. Together, America, Russia and Syria can bring forth ceasefire and peace and also the renewal of Syria. We have to be renewed, we have to present a vision. You can't end the war without vision. Russia and América can end this, but they have to have a vision for Syria, and with Syria.

I am not for Assad or for the regime; I am for Syria, which is a key society in the Middle East. Not Lebanon, not Jordan, not Egypt, not Iraq, it is the most important place where Christians are a little group, but living in a cohesive society.

You have been criticized by leading figures in your own Church. Several bishops have called for your resignation. Is resignation an option?

I am for the cannon law, which says that the Patriarchal See is vacant upon the death of the Patriarch or by his own resignation. I like to tell my bishops "I love you. Let us love eachother so that we can confess, love, and serve our Church and make it a symbol of testimony for the Lord in this tragic situation for the whole Christian Middle East"

Can you imagine a situation where you would resign in the future? Or do you prefer to die in your post, as is traditional among Eastern Patriarchs?

That is up to God. I can't answer you, because I don't have that power. Let's just say that I am here for the service of the Church and the future is in the hands of God.

Patriarchs Laham, Shevchuk, Clemente and caridnal Sandri

You are a special guest at the meeting of European Eastern Catholic bishops, who are discussing the pastoral care of migrants in the West. Have you come here to learn from them, or to share your own experience?

I was invited by them, especially by the Ukrainian Church, because I was in Lviv in September, in the synod of the Ukrainian Church and they told me about this meeting and invited me, and I was happy to come.

I am very happy to have come because it very important learn and to give our own experience and especially our own vision of the very tragic situation of emigration.

Emigration, for us, is very important, very problematic. It is very problemetic for Christians in Europe and for Muslims in Europe, and in encountering a region which is no longer a Christian Europe, but an area of globalisation, an area of Laicité, and in some respects atheist. This is a very big danger, more dangerous and more acute than the whole war in Syria.

I tell you the result of the war, migration of Christians and of Muslims, from both sides, it is a bigger danger and more harmful for the world than the war in Syria. Therefore I proposed, today to bring this theme of the results and dangers of the emigration of Christians from the Middle East, both for the Middle East and for them in Europe, and for the Muslims from the Middle East and in Europe.

For me it is a very current and urgent to have a special assembly of the bishops conferences of Europe about this theme. Europe is not prepared to have such a tsunami of migrants, both Christians and Muslims. How to cope with Muslims and Christians coming with their own identity. Islam has a different approach that Christians in Europe. That is a very big danger for...

*His Beatitude here used the word “parents”, but considering his age, and the fact that the word Parent in Latin languages actually means relative rather “mother and father”, I have changed it to relative. 

This is the second time I interview His Beatitude. You can read the first interview, from November 2014, here.

"Christians need a safe zone under UN protection for at least 10 years"

The Patriarch in Fátima

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius Joseph III, of the Syriac Catholic Church. News story (in Portuguese) can be read here.

Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista ao Patriarca da Igreja Católica Siríaca. A reportagem pode ser lida aqui.

What brings you to Portugal?

This is my first visit to Portugal. I have wanted to make such a pilgrimage to Our Lady of Fátima for several years. We organised this trip for prayer, to pray to her for peace in the Middle East. I did the same thing three years ago when I organised another pilgrimage to Lourdes, in France. So it is a trip of hope, of renewed veneration to the Mother of the Lord, the Virgin Mary, whom we venerate very much in the East.

Is devotion to Our Lady of Fátima widespread among the faithful in your church?

Not really, not as much as to Our Lady of Lourdes, but we will work on it. We are finishing the first church dedicated to Our Lady of Fátima in Lebanon. Actually we, the Syriac Catholic Church, have also the first church dedicated to Our Lady of Fátima in Syria, which is in Damascus. It was dedicated forty years ago. So we try surely to spread the devotion to Our Lady of Fátima since hers was especially a message of peace, hope, penance and return to the Lord, which we very much appreciate in these times of darkness which surrounds all aspects of life in the Middle East, in particular Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.

Five years after the beginning of the war in Syria, how do you assess the current situation?

We are all devastated, especially by this hypocritical agenda of the Western politicians. They don't care for anything besides their own interests. I just read about the visit of the second ranking person in Saudi Arabia, the son of the present King, to France. He was welcomed with tremendous respect by the French President and everybody knows that these kind of relations are based on – it’s very sad to say – a Machiavellian agenda, for the interests of both countries, without thinking about the many infractions and retrograde regime which is not even accepted by the family of civilised nations because of the lack of respect for Human Rights.

We are so sad to see that we have been forgotten. Christian minorities have been living in the region for Millennia and we have been forgotten by the so called civilised Western nations. The same ones which pretend to protect the charter of human rights and democracy, equality and religious and civil liberties.

How often do you travel to Syria?

I was born in Syria. As you know, unlike his eminence Manuel III [Patriarch of Lisbon] who is a Patriarch merely in title, we as patriarchs of Eastern Churches are the heads of Churches sui iuris, so the Patriarch is a spiritual head and has to visit his flock, his church, wherever they exist.

So I was recently in Sweden for two weeks, to inquire about the situation of our emigrants, especially those who were forced to flee Syria and Iraq. It's not easy for us.

I usually travel at least once a month to Syria, but not to every spot in Syria. I am tied to Damascus, Homs and the Coast. The other regions, like the North-eastern region, Aleppo, Hassakeh, it is not possible for me to travel.

Your brother Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church survived an assassination attempt just one week ago. Are you constantly under threat?

I think we all, in the Middle East, live a kind of threat and we can't just say that we have to avoid those threats, or we won't fulfil our spiritual and pastoral duties. Of course, we were so sad to hear about that attempt, and I did call him, we spoke right after it, and we keep always in touch, we encourage each other, we try to do our best to fulfil our responsibilities.

In this occasion, his life was saved by the intervention of members of Sutoro, a Christian militia which works closely with the Kurds. Is there a place for Christian militias in Syria?

I do not agree with this terminology, saying that there are militias. There are Christian groups which want to defend their villages, their towns, because they did endure attacks by the Islamic State and those terrorists and many were killed or kidnapped or forced into Exodus. So we encourage our people to defend themselves within the legal army or security forces. We don't speak about militias which go out and fight others, like their neighbours, or take part in conflicts outside the areas where they live.

But in Iraq or in Syria, for example, it is not possible for the government or army to be everywhere, because the sectarian war has been going on and on for years, so the people have a duty to defend themselves. Both the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch and myself agree that we have to stand up to defend lives, families, women, children from being slaughtered like sheep in these savage attacks.

Therefore I am not talking about militias as they are usually described. We don't have militias, we have people who want to defend themselves, their houses and their villages.

Some Christian groups advocate for autonomy in majority Christian areas in Iraq and Syria, mainly in the Nineveh plains. What is your opinion on this?

Let's take each country separately. In Iraq there is no longer anywhere where our people can exist in dignity and liberty other than in a safe zone. There is no one description of what that safe zone would be. Usually one speaks about a kind of province, where Christians and minorities, in the Plain of Nineveh, could live together.

Still now, in Iraq, we have the Plain of Nineveh, where the majority are Sunni Arabs and minorities like Christians, Yazidis, Shabaks and Kurds are not accepted as citizens with full rights. They have been tolerated, so we have been talking about a kind of safe zone, like a province, or a zone which would be decentralized, that is, under the protection of the United Nations for at least about 10 years, until we find a way for real coexistence between various ethnic, confessional and religious groups.

So we are not talking about an autonomous region, this would be unrealistic. We are talking about a kind of safe zone either dependant on the central government in Baghdad, or on Kurdistan. Until now we don't know which of these will control the plain of Nineveh. But for humanitarian reasons we do need some kind of international protection, otherwise the Plain of Nineveh, which is the cradle of Christianity in Mesopotamia, will be empty and when it is empty it will not be for a period of time, but forever, because usually Christians and others don't feel safe when they are not accepted as full rights citizens by a majority which mixes religion and state. That is why we need this kind of international supervision or protection.

Patriarch Ignatius Joseph celebrates
mass in Fátima, with Syriac pilgrims

When ISIS really rose up and took Mosul and much of the Nineveh Plain, Kurds were the only ones who immediately resisted the jihadists and gave protection to the Christians. But since then I have also heard grumblings from some local Christians that the Kurds are really more interested in consolidating power than sharing it with Christians, Yazidis and other minorities. Your thoughts?

As you just said, Christians and other minorities had no other safe option than to get to Kurdistan, because Kurdistan was a nearby region where they could find refuge. The Islamic State fighters and others used to control all other areas.

Now, of course we all know that the Kurds want their own autonomous country, or territory. We will have to recognise that they have the right to have their own autonomous and independent region, or state. The problem is that many of those who are talking about this very delicate issue think that Kurds had to sacrifice themselves for others. It wasn't so simple. They were on the front line with the Islamic State fighters and they had to defend their own autonomous region, with a long front, about 800 kilometres, so it wasn't easy.

Now we don't know what will happen in the future, because we are talking about minority groups like Christians which, it is very sad to say, are not drawing the interest of the super powers or nations, especially of the Western World. So we have been left alone. Where to go? Baghdad has been almost half-emptied of its Christians, and we have no other option than the plain of Nineveh or Kurdistan. We need to go back to our motherland, the Plain of Nineveh, and to live peacefully with others.

So who is going to give us the assurance that we can live in equal rights with the majority? We need the help of the international community to tell the central government of Baghdad and the Kurdish government that these small communities, the minorities, have the right to live in their own land, with the dignity of human beings and they have to provide them with the conditions for a right to live in dignity.

This is in Iraq. In Syria we can't talk about an autonomous region, because Christians are, or were, spread in almost every spot in the country and we didn't have these kind of attacks against Christians as such, but because we have been left, in some areas, alone, and the army of the country could not help to defend everywhere, not only Christians, but also people from other religions or confessions who have been attacked.

Christians mostly feel that they have to be with their compatriots of other religions, and just focus on civil rights issues to build again a nation with equal citizenship amongst all, to build a civilised country for the future. So we try especially to explain to the international families, the tragedies of our people, especially the Christians, in Iraq, to help us stay in our land, and the first condition for that is to be given international protection.

Many people expected the conflict to spill over into Lebanon, but until now, things have been relatively peaceful. To what can we attribute this?

Lebanon, as you well know, has had its share of suffering and civil war in the 70's, late 80's and early 90's. So I think because the Lebanese learned that internal conflict is not going to help anyone and, therefore, they learned that they have to find a way to live together in a kind of peaceful manner and trying to stay far away from the regional conflicts, especially in Syria.

But, as you well know, the confessionalism and sectarianism, the hidden animosity between Sunnis and Shia, didn't help to keep Lebanon out of those regional conflicts. And in my opinion that is because you have a fear that if the Lebanese get involved in this kind of sectarian war it is not going to profit anyone, it will be very bad for everybody and, therefore, with the help of the international nations, either in the West or in the East – that means Europe, America and Russia – Lebanon was somehow spared this kind of conflict. But we still live in a kind of very tense situation, because of the interference from outside.

Most Western countries have grown suspicious of Russia and their interference in other countries, such as in Syria or in the Ukraine. But how do Christians in Syria and other regions, in your experience, see the intervention of Russia in the civil war? Do they see the Russians as liberators or aggressors?

I think most Christians, either in or outside of Syria, see in the military intervention by Russia a kind of deliverance, not only for Christian communities but also for the whole Syrian people, of all religions and confessions, because for the first three years, at least, there was no such intervention from Russia in Syria, we had mostly Western intervention, through the regional countries, Turkey and the Gulf States, supporting, financing and arming the so called opposition – and we still remember what Obama said about that opposition, that there was no moderate opposition – but for Machiavellian interests they kept hammering Syria and calling the Government illegitimate, while we see that it is recognised by the international community and the United Nations.

Until now, the agglomerate media of the West keep hammering on Syria and want to destroy the country, pretending that the cause of all evils is Bashar al-Assad, which is not true, and therefore, Christians saw, in the Russian intervention, a kind of salvation of Syria, because already Syria was half destroyed before the intervention of the Russian army. And although Russia, of course, have their own geopolitical interests, they have been more clear and transparent in helping the Syrian government and the Syrian people, because otherwise there would have been a hecatomb and who knows when it would have ended, because the whole conflict in Syria was based on confessionalism. It is a lie, what they used to say in the West, either in France, the USA or England, that it was a kind of popular rebellion against the dictatorship.

We know that there was a dictatorship, but what kind of alternative did we have in Syria? We had the alternative of the Islamic State. And there were lies spread that the Government created the Islamic State. It is a surreal lie, but this is the agglomerate media, they can very much manipulate the public opinion.

The group of Syriac pilgrims after mass in Fátima

The Pope was just in Armenia where he once again described the massacres of Armenians as genocide. But the victims were not only Armenians, were they?

We feel very close to the Armenian brothers and sisters, the Armenian people and Church, because we have been persecuted and killed and exposed to genocide like them, 100 years ago and many times before and after that.

You well know that what used to be called Asia Minor, present day Turkey, was well populated by Christian communities, either Greek, Armenian, Syriac, Assyrian... And now we can't anymore speak about a Christian presence, it is a very, very tiny minority left.

So we are the same, we feel the same as our Armenian brothers and sisters, because we have been not only decimated, we have been exposed to genocide. We don't exist anymore in Turkey... We have 10 to 20 thousand Syriacs, especially in the South and South Eastern region of Turkey. We had existed with important numbers, churches, monasteries, villages, and they don't exist anymore.

So we are very grateful to Pope Francis for having made this trip to be close to these people. We don't have a Syriac country, we don't have the huge numbers which lobby Western nations to think about us, but we still live in hope that the time will come when the international family will be closer to us and think about our survival, because we are left as the only communities which were very close to the primitive Church. Jesus, the blessed Mother, the apostles, they didn't speak Latin or Greek, they spoke Aramaic.

And I told the bishop of Leiria and Fátima that I would like to have also that verse of the gospel engraved in the new Basilica in Aramaic/Syriac, the language of Jesus and the Blessed Mother. I told him I'd send him the text. [A glass panel by Canadian artist Kerry Joe Kelly, in the Basilica of the Most Holy Trinity, in Fátima, is engraved with four biblical sentences in about 25 languages]

So this is our destiny, rather, it is our vocation, to be real martyrs, that is, witnesses to the gospel and also to shed our blood for Jesus.

Christians in the Middle East are divided into many different churches. Does this division weaken the Christian witness and voice, or is the diversity something to be valued?

I think we have to take it both ways.

Does it weaken? Surely it weakens. Because it is very sad to recall that in those regions where a Muslim majority has the rule, numbers are very important. The kind of rights of minorities are not the same as in civilised nations. Whatever they say, the best they can do is tolerate the existence of non-Muslim minorities. Therefore, when we are, let’s say, divided into more than one church, it is not seen as a richness for the majority.

For us, we say it is a richness, because of those traditions and the patrimony which go back to early Christianity and which enriches the Universal Church and even humanity. But therefore, especially in these times when we have this kind of fanaticism – not only attributed to the majority but it is a fact that the Muslim majority rely mostly on numbers, and as you know they have the notion of the Umma, the Islamic nation, from the Far East to the Far West they are all considered one nation, and this way they can, I think, blackmail the Western civilised countries and spread fear wherever they are, because of their numbers. Besides that you have also the oil resources and now the third element is the terrorism factor, they spread that fear among the civilised world.

So, again, being various churches, would be a richness if we were living in times where every human being would be respected, no matter the numbers or religion. But these times, where the majority wants to impose itself, it is a weakness.

How do you see Europe's response to the refugee crisis?

Since the beginning we have opposed the forced emigration for people or individuals. Especially for us it is a big threat to our survival, because the ones who emigrate do not return. Therefore, for us, migration is a very dangerous phenomenon.

The way European countries have handled this kind of migration was not the right way, because they didn't look at the roots of this migration, they instigated violence in Syria for the past five years, or more, and in Iraq they kept silent about the way the US handled the Iraqi question.

There we also see manifest hypocrisy and Machiavellianism in the way the European politicians handled that question. Because until the tragic death of Aylan, the little child, back in early September, they didn't care and they could find a way to keep the Syrian refugees, around two million of them, mostly in Turkey, with a kind of agreement between European countries and Turkey.

But after that tragic death, the media did talk about it and the European countries were kind of lost, they didn't have the right policies. We don't want that kind of migration based on forced and on sectarian wars. They should have done more to bring more peace to Syria and find a way for the Government of Syria and the opposition to find the best solution for the future. But we know the immediate geopolitical interests and now they have to face that kind of hundreds of thousands of migrants and they don't know how to handle this.

Patriarch Ignatius Joseph III and
D. António Marto, bishop of Leiria-Fátima

I think this is a kind of very wrong policies they followed. And we have said, since the beginning... It's not just the Patriarch being idealistic... We have said, since the beginning, please do not compare the situation in Syria to that in Egypt and Tunisia. In Syria the situation is much more complex, because we have ethnic, religious and confessional diversity, many minorities, and we have to find a way to stop the fighting, and whatever solution would be better than instigating that conflict.

But they have their own agenda. Since the beginning we have said that and now we are harvesting the results of these policies.

In regard to Eastern Catholic Churches, some complained that the Eastern Catholics were treated almost as second class citizens, due to issues such as the authority of Patriarchs outside of their traditional homelands, ordination of married clergy abroad, etc. Are things different with Francis?

There is no doubt that things have been changed, and they have to be changed gradually in a better understanding of the nature of Eastern traditions and the authority of Patriarchs. We keep telling the Holy See that Patriarchs are the head of their Churches and as such they have the right to take care and minister to their church communities wherever they are, be it in the Middle East or in the Western countries.

I think Pope Francis understands our grief and our needs very well, especially in these times where we have been threatened in our own survival in some of the countries in the Middle East, like Syria and Iraq, and we don't have any alternative but to follow our people and to give them the spiritual and pastoral ministry they need. Surely it is not going to be easy, but we keep fighting for this goal, because we think it is quintessential for our survival.

“The war in Syria has made our faith stronger”

This is a full transcript of the interview with Sr. Annie Demarjian, a Syrian nun who was recently in Portugal at the invitation of the local branch of Aid to the Church in Need. The news report, in Portuguese, can be found here.

Transcrição integral da entrevista à irmã Annie Demarjian, uma freira síria que esteve recentemente em Portugal a convite da Ajuda à Igreja que Sofre. A reportagem está aqui.

Could you explain to us where you live and work you do?

I am Sister Annie Demerjian, from Syria, with the Sisters of Jesus and Mary.

We have been working in Aleppo since 2004.

Who do mostly work with?

We are working with a school, with the school of the Greek-Catholic Diocese, my sisters and myself, and when the war started we also started doing emergency work with families.

Are you from Aleppo?

No, I am from Damascus, but my mission was in Aleppo.

Do you still have family in Damascus?

Yes.

You have been in Aleppo since 2004. How much has life changed since the beginning of the war?

Since the war began, the situation of displacement within the country, mass flight to neighbouring countries, to Europe, as well as death and injury, loss of infrastructure in the country, as you know. Lots of change happened. Many houses were destroyed and damaged, factories, as you all know, were looted, many places of employment were destroyed and it is difficult to repair them. Schools and hospitals either destroyed or, sometimes if not, the systems have been terribly degraded.

Those who want to stay, or can't leave, are in a real state of poverty. Life is not easy now, and it is very difficult to maintain daily life in Aleppo, especially. Electricity and water are cut off for long hours. The daily life is not easy for families.

What does your congregation do to help?

From the beginning of the crisis, our sisters were holding us in prayer all over the world. And they try to help as much as they can so we can stand with our families. My congregation, as well as Aid to the Church in Need, which is helping us a lot. At least we make the suffering of our families less.

We know that this war has affected the country materially, and there has been terrible loss of life, refugees, etc. How has it affected people's faith, and more specifically the faith of the Christians?

There is a real spiritual growth and the families need the support and welcome of the liturgy and prayer that the churches offer. They are full when prayer or mass is announced. I think also that the crisis has made our faith stronger, and you can see that from the worship of the peopel, the way they pray, the way they trust the Lord, the way they have hope that one day there will be a ressurection.

You say there is hope that one day things will improve. But looking back, only in the past 100 years, you had the massacres of 1915, Simile in 1933, now the persecutions at the hands of ISIS... Do you believe Christians will ever live in peace in this part of the world?

If you go back in the history of the Church, from the beginning we have always had difficult times and peaceful times. So what we are looking for is to live in peace and dialogue.

It is not easy... Always our dear Christians have been facing dangers and difficulties for the sake of Christ. If we really believe in Christ, then what does our life matter?

Pope Francis used an expression which is Ecumenism of Blood. There are so many different churches on the ground in the Middle East, not only Catholic but Orthodox, do you feel that the Christians have drawn closer together faced with these persecutions?

Yes, very much so, especially with the emergency help, they try to help eachother, when one Church has a good, they share it with other churches. Not only on the material level, also on the spirtiual level, every time we have common prayer for peace, for kidnapped people, so yes, this crisis has brought us closer and closer together.

One of the concerns is that this crisis will drive Christians away from the Middle East. What do you say when young people go to you and say they are trying to leave?

I just listen to them. It is not easy to say for them to stay or to go, because people have a capacity of holding this violence and some people who are leaving have their reasons. So we need to pray together and see what is the good for them and let them make their choices.

We hear so many appeals for help from the Christians in the Middle East, but what exactly can we do to help?

When you have difficulties it is very important to find somebody standing beside you. What we want more, the real intention is that people work for peace. For us as a congregation and as a group working with families, we felt that. We felt that we are not alone. Many people around the world are praying for us, supporting us with material things and even with their prayer. And this is the beauty of the Church. We are one body and when a small part of the body is suffering, the whole church is suffering. So we felt that our brothers are really suffering with us and they are always sending us messages. Sister, we are praying for you, for your communities, we are with you, today we are having mass and praying for you.

The concern for what is happening is beautiful. Maybe on the wider level, the good intention to work for peace and make people aware that we really want peace.

Syrian nun gives "martyr's bullets" to Lisbon Patriarch

Sister Agnes Mariam de la Croix

The Patriarch of Lisbon was recently given three bullets which were used to kill Christians in Syria.

The bullets were brought by sister Agnes Mariam de la Croix, an outspoken Syrian Melkite nun.

According to the nuns, when jihadists entered the town of Maloula they went house to house. A young Christian lady was hiding with her family in their house and three men were outside to try and protect the home. When the terrorists arrived, she heard them demand that the youngest man declare himself a Muslim. He replied: “I am a Christian, I want to live like a Christian and die a Christian.” He was shot on the spot.

The terrorists then asked the other young man, a cousin of the first, and warned him “look at what happened to him”. He replied that he too wanted to die a Christian, and was subsequently shot.

The third man, an uncle of the first two, didn’t even wait to be asked, he just declared: “I am a Christian, shoot me”. And he was shot.

The woman, who had recently had a dream of Our Lady in which the Blessed Mother handed her three red flowers, then had a vision of Saint Anthony of Padua (born in Lisbon), protecting the rest of the family who, as it turned out, were unharmed.

The bullets used to kill the three Christians were salvaged by the nuns and three of them were now given to the Patriarch of Lisbon, for him to give to the shrine of Our Lady of Fatima.

Sister Agnes also decries the fact that Christians in the Middle East are afraid to speak up, whereas Muslims in Europe are free to do so.

In this interview, which you can watch here Sister Agnes speaks in French, and the video is subtitled in Portuguese.