"There is a place for arming Christians to defend themselves"

Manifestação a favor da criação
de um território para os assírios

Mardean Isaac defends the creation of a semi-autonomous homeland for the Assyrians in Iraq. This is the full transcript of the second part of an interview. The first part, about who the Assyrians are, is here. The news piece, in Portuguese, can be found here.

Mardean Isaac defende a criação de um território semi-autónomo para os Assírios, no Iraque. Esta é uma transcrição completa da segunda parte de uma entrevista. A primeira parte, sobre quem são os assírios, está aqui. A reportagem encontra-se aqui.

There were demonstrations today [Saturday, August 1st] all over the world. How many people took part? What is it you are asking for in these demonstrations?

Demonstrations took place in around 30 cities, in around 10 to 12 countries. In terms of numbers, around 40 to 50,000. Australia alone had around 6.000.

What we are asking for is, first of all, a recognition that what is going on is Ethno-religious cleansing. That is to say, in Iraq we have absolutely no protection, no security of our own, no legal or political recourse. We have simply been surrendered to the chaos which is taking place there, with nothing to stand against it.

Many of the signs you'll see point to a movement called #DemandForAction and also contain the phrase SafeHavenNow. What they point to is our desire to create a semi-autonomous region, within the Ninevah province where we can guide our own destiny, where we no longer have to be at the mercy of death squads, paramilitary groups, auxiliary forces, all other groups which have taken over Iraq, which have turned the Iraqi army into what it is now, which is nothing.

We want a region where we can live side by side with the other minorities which inhabit it, and where we can flourish, and where we can secure our own future in Iraq. That is what we want. However, we also exhibit solidarity with all our brothers and sisters in Syria, especially in the province of Hassekah, who are also undergoing terrible security crisis, and securing themselves against ISIS's onslaught.

Who would set up this province, who are you directing these pleas to?

This movement has been going on for a long time. It has really gathered momentum over the past 7 years. What is strange about what is going on now is that previously we were lobbying the Federal Government of Iraq to say "look, there is a region which Kurdistan covets and it’s in between the area which is definitely yours, and the area that is definitely theirs, and they have designs on it and we want it to become semi-autonomous.

So it was directed at the Federal Government, sort of against Kurdish designs, especially since Kurdistan kept putting off a referendum in the region in order to flood the area with more Kurds. Now all of a sudden the situation is very different indeed, that is to say, most of the plains have been taken by the Kurds. There is no reason to believe that they want to give them back, they have expanded their own territory by over 30%.

So in our protest today [August 2nd 2014] in London, in our demands, we said: Irrespective of who controls the plain, we want it to be semi-autonomous whether its Kurdish or Iraqi. Either way it will not pose a security threat to anybody, to say the least. To arm extremely disadvantaged groups like the Assyrians, the Yezidis, the few Mandeans, an absolutely extraordinary sect, the Shabaks and so on... these people are not interested in taking anybody else’s land, they simply want to secure their own.

We don't want a state, we want a part of Iraq, whether with the Kurds - we have a long and very complex relationship with them, we can certainly "do business with them" - or whether it is with Iraq, if they can get it together and expel ISIS.

Mardean Isaac

Interestingly the Kurds at the moment seem to be the ones who are best equipped to confront ISIS and defend the Christians in the region...

That's also interesting. There have been reports of fighting between the Kurds and ISIS today [August 2nd 2014], but they have so far had an implicit mutual enemy. The Kurds have taken what they want from Iraq and ISIS have taken what they want and they have allowed each other to do that.

Of course, with all these implicit deals, once these territories are secure now it’s uncertain what is going to happen. The Kurds have taken us in. I don't think they should be praised to much for that, we're talking about dealing with people like the Christians of Mosul who have been dispossessed of absolutely everything, they weren't even allowed to take watches or rings for God's sake. So the fact that the Kurds have set them up in shelters is... ok, fine.

But the Kurdistan Regional Government has a lot to answer for in terms of the way they treat us. They need to stop privileging building rights to Kurds, they need to stop confiscating our lands, all kinds of issues need to be worked out between us and the Kurds. But yes, certainly, there is a possibility of establishing an understanding. But the Kurds need to get out of their mode of insecurity, this mode of land grabbing and desperation to secure as much as possible, and ethnic hegemony. Its partially understandable why they are in that state, given their history and their antagonism towards Arabs and the State of Iraq, but they need to get out of it immediately and recognize that we suffered together in the North, we fought together against Saddam, our villages and our treasures were also destroyed, we have a shared history and they must recognize this. They must stop calling us Kurdish Christians. We have no interest in being called Kurdish Christians, we are not Kurds. And we deserve not only our full cultural, linguistic and religious rights, but also some degree, an appropriate degree of self-administration.

All of the Middle Eastern Christian religious leaders I have spoken too, and others I have read have been unanimous in saying they don't want a separate homeland just for the Christians. How far can this movement go if it doesn't have the backing of the religious leaders?

That's an interesting question...

I'll speak for myself. The position of the Chaldean church, especially their leader in America, is an outrage. His position is that because the Chaldeans inhabit a spiritual nation they have no particular interest in clinging to the territories they have in Iraq. Many statements have been made by Chaldeans that have deeply disappointed us regarding their attachment to Iraq.

As far as any religious leader who is ignoring the political reality must be criticized for it. We have absolutely no interest in being politically beholden to our religious leaders. If people want to go to church, affiliate themselves with whichever ecclesiastical institution it's their business. When it comes to issues of politics and history, I personally, and many other Assyrians, don't believe that the Churches should play a leading role, at all.

Autonomy, that's fine... but who would defend this state? Would it make a difference if you're all gathered in one place but there are still these groups that just want you gone? And on this subject, the bishops have been clear in saying that they don't want Christian militias, they don't want to respond to these persecutions with force. Is that your position? Is there a place for arming the Christians to be able to defend themselves in the Middle East?

Yes, I think there is a place for arming Christians to be able to defend themselves. To say that we don't want to respond to these persecutions with force is utterly baffling to me. We have no interest in doing anything with arms, other than protecting our villages. So in terms of the Church leaders who have a blanket position on these things, which I consider to be a politically cowardly one, I would simply like them to answer specifically as to what many people in the Ninevah plains need to do when they hear news of ISIS approaching within half a day.

Militantes do Estado Islâmico em cima
de uma Igreja em Sinjar, no Iraque

I've spoken to some of these people and they've gone to Turkey, where they live in a state of Limbo, because they are not Turkish citizens, especially when whole villages or communities are drained, they have no idea when they can return. Leaving is difficult, returning is difficult, their lives are completely suspended.

We're not talking about suddenly handing out guns to people, we're not talking about being irresponsible, and to suggest that we are, simply by recognizing the security problem is just bizarre to me. It's bizarre to anybody involved. Just go to Demand For Action, an initiative unconnected to any religious group or political party, its bizarre to them too.

What we need is organized, sanctioned, official security forces. Not militias, not squads of guys with guns, but people who protect villages and will put off attacks by looters and pillagers, which is what these groups are.

To even describe ISIS as an Islamic State is an absurdity. It’s a rag-tag crew of angry, stupid young men, who join together to go on a murder spree. It’s as if they are playing video games, that's how despicable they are. They gun people down wantonly... And there aren't that many of them. The Iraqi army should have protected us and they didn't.

So my question to all of our church leaders who are saying "we're Christian, we don't do violence", and so on, is, "what is the alternative?". That's my question.

Who are the Assyrians?

Mardean Isaac explains who the Assyrians are and gives us his perspective on the debate over Arab/Assyrian identity of Middle Eastern Christians. This is a full transcript* of the first part of an interview. The second part, on the possible creation of an Assyrian homeland, can be found here.

Mardean Isaac ajuda-nos a perceber quem são os Assírios e dá-nos a sua perspectiva sobre o debate acerca da identidade dos cristãos no Médio Oriente. Transcrição completa da primeira parte de uma entrevista, cuja continuação, sobre a eventual criação de um território para os assírios, está aqui.

Where were you born?

I was born in England. My father is an Iraqi Assyrian and my mother is an Iranian Assyrian.

Assyrian, what exactly does that term mean?

The term refers to an ethnic group who inhabit a contiguous region which is roughly correspondent to what is now described as Kurdistan, so South-east Turkey, North-East Syria, North-West Iraq, the Urmia region of Iran, and we are a non-Arab, non-Kurdish people, we speak colloquial dialects of Aramaic with some native morphology, even though our liturgical and ecclesiastical dialects are middle-Aramaic/Classical Syriac, we speak vernacular versions of those.

We have existed in those settings as a community for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Assyrian is a term we use to describe ourselves because we trace our ancestry and heritage to the inhabitants of that ancient civilization and we continue to inhabit many of its territories.

Are Assyrians Christians?

Yes. That is to say that they are almost entirely a Christian people -- I am not speaking to their particular beliefs, i.e. whether they are practicing or not. There are ethnic Assyrians who have converted to Islam over the centuries and have lost their identity and language. In recent memory, there are Assyrians who were forcibly converted to Islam and/or 'Kurdified' during the Assyrian genocide of the early 20th century. There is also a small number of Jewish Assyrians.

When we speak of Assyrians, we are not speaking of all Christians in the Middle East... Would Assyrians include the Chaldeans for example?

The Chaldean church is a Catholic branch of what is now called the Assyrian Church of the East. The first Church of the East Patriarch to enter communion with Rome was Yohannan Sulaqa in 1552. The Chaldean Church became a 'millet' of the Ottoman Empire in 1846. Chaldeans are Catholic, but ethnically Assyrian.

How about the maronites, for example?

The Maronites are obviously a Levantine people. Historically they have used Syriac, our classical language, but ethnically it depends what you mean. They belong to a different region, but it is tricky because many of them refer to themselves as Surayeh, which is hard to translate directly, but translates into Syriac -- or Syrian, in a non-Arab sense. So I would say there is a link in terms of a Syriac heritage, as well as a culture of martial highland resistance, but ethnically, directly, they are not the same as us, no.

I know that the term Assyrian is not necessarily embraced in the Middle East, there are many who are attached to an Arab identity. How peaceful is the term in characterizing Christians in the Middle East?

I think the Maronites have a very special place in the political history of the Middle East, especially in the XXth Century, that is to say, at the time of the Lebanese independence they were around 40 or 50% of the population. They spearheaded the independence movement, so their adoption of the Arab identity was the closest you could say to a majoritarian adoption of that identity. They chose to do it for the sake of the country, so to say, they wanted to align themselves with the countries nearby them and so on.

Iraqi Christian displaced by Islamic State

They don't call themselves Assyrian and over time, especially with the failure of our own national movement, which collapsed when the Ottoman Turks massacred us in 1915-1918, with the collapse of that movement the churches started to entrench themselves and try and enforce their own authority over their communities and distance themselves from a national identity.

I call myself Assyrian, I have many Chaldeans in my family who also call themselves Assyrian, we all speak Suret, which is a dialect of Aramaic with Akkadian elements, which we usually refer to in English as Assyrian, and I know countless members of the Syriac Orthodox Church also refer to themselves as Assyrian.

The Patriarch of the Melkite church, for example, is very emphatic about the Christians being Arabs just like their neighbours. Is that also a leftover of the Arab Nationalist movement?

Absolutely. The division, broadly, is between people who want to assert themselves independently of Arabism, and independent of the dominant hegemonic forces in the region, which are and were Arabism and more recently Islam. So when it comes to the Melkite Church, increasingly it is true of the Chaldean Church, this was true of the Maronite Church, although Maronite political parties have more recently begun to move away from an Arab identity, and during the Lebanese Civil War many groups, though ostensibly Catholic, refused to identify as Arabs. It has to do with whether the leaders of the churches feel they have to prioritize their congregation and their ecclesiastical authority on the Arab dominion, or whether they side with their people, in other words, they try and move towards a situation where they establish themselves quasi-independently.

Our Patriarch of the Church of the East wanted to establish an Assyrian State, under the auspices of the British, so that division between Arab and Non-Arab, has to do with that. But of course, when they describe themselves as Arabs it goes without saying that they are not "real" Arabs. They are not the Arabs of the Gulf, they don't belong to Arab tribes. The Arabism is a political movement which began in the Early XXth Century and under whose auspices they wish to go in order to save their own church and find a place for their religion in an Arab world.

During the Arab Nationalist movement, many Christians saw this as an opportunity and thought this was a chance to fit in and play leading roles, and many did. But with the failure of the Arab Nationalist movement, in practical terms, could it make it worse if they identify as non-Arabs?

It’s an odd situation. In the case of ISIS there is not a trace of Arabism in them. It’s a kind of bizarre international murder gang of Chechen and Welsh teenagers, and Afghans and all kinds of people. Of course they are preoccupied in a bizarre manner with what they call original Islam, but overall in terms of the discussions I have with Middle Eastern people my age, they find the ethnic aspect of Assyrians utterly baffling. They may discover with surprise that we don't speak Arabic, but broadly they simply see us as Christians and increasingly they see each other as simply Shiite or Sunni rather than primarily as Arabs.

Of course there are all kinds of tribal, geographical, local forces at work in all of these conflicts, but the area of broad ethnic identification is certainly in decline. And the regimes that supported that identification are collapsing. 


*A few corrections and minor alterations were submitted to these answers by Mardean Isaac in November 2014. I accepted these as they made no change to the overall tone or message of the original interview, and improved its clarity in some ways. In some cases they were spelling corrections to terms I had misheard during the interview.