This is
a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Fr. Jakob
Rolland, of the Catholic Church in Iceland and chairman of the Icelandic Interfaith
Forum, in which capacity I spoke to him about recent attempts to forbid circumcision
for religious reasons in that country.
UPDATE: Since publishing this transcript it was brought to my attention that the proposed bill has been scrapped. Although good news, this in no way makes the interview less interesting, especially in respect to growing ignorance of religion and its importance among Icelanders. The interview was, naturally, recorded months ago, before the proposal was scrapped.
Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da
minha entrevista com o Padre Jakob Rolland, da Igreja Católica na Islândia e
secretário-geral do Fórum Inter-religioso islandês. Foi nesta capacidade que
conversei com ele sobre a possibilidade de se proibir a circuncisão por motivos
religiosos naquele país. A
reportagem pode ser lida aqui.
What are the Jewish and Muslim communities in
Iceland like? And how did they react to this proposal?
There is
a very, very small Jewish community, we don't know exactly, because this
community is not registered, there is no organised community of Jewish people,
so the figures go from 35 to 200, we do not really know how many. But it is a
very small community.
But they
are expecting a rabbi to be nominated this year, and he will probably come to
Iceland this Summer and constitute a community.
The
Muslims are more numerous, maybe around 2000 in Iceland, and they are divided
into five different communities. For them and for the Jews, this is a very
serious issue, because for Jewish people circumcision is mandatory, they have
to have the boys circumcised on their eighth day of life, and that is probably
the only Jewish practice that all the Jewish people do. Other practices, like
eating kosher, or keeping feast days like Yom Kippur, or Shabbat, and so on,
some people follow them and others don't. But I think almost 100% have
circumcision. For them it’s not an option.
For the
Muslims it is not so important from a religious perspective. Almost all Muslims
practice Circumcision, but it’s more cultural than religious. It has always
been part of the Muslim religion, but they are not so strict regarding the age,
for example, it is quite common for them to have children circumcised at five
or six, or even later, but they also insist on continuing this tradition.
Have they spoken out on this issue?
There
was no debate on it before. The debate started at the end of January, this
year, before that one had never heard about this issue in Iceland.
But since the debate did begin, how have they
reacted?
We have
heard nothing from the Jewish community. Since they are not constituted as a
community and they don't have any spokesman, so we didn't hear anything. But we
heard a lot from the Jewish communities abroad, especially from the Northern
countries, Denmark and Sweden and Finland. These are very concerned on behalf
of the few Jewish people in Iceland.
And the
Muslims community, three of them are members of the Interfaith Forum, that is
an informal group of 18 religions in Iceland, for inter-religious dialogue and
promoting religious freedom and human rights and issues which concern all the
religions. And within the framework of this Interfaith Forum, they brought
forward this issue at the beginning of February, to ask for a reaction. Their
first intention was that the Forum should issue a statement, but it appeared
that this would not be possible because most of the 18 religions represented in
the Forum are against the ban, but some are in favour, or have no opinion, so
there was no unanimity within the Forum, of which I am the chairman.
So we
said we cannot make a statement, because some of the members are not in
agreement. But then we came to the conclusion that we can organise a
conference, where the Jewish and the Muslims can express their concern and
publicly explain the Parliament in Iceland, and to the public, why this issue
is so serious for them. And on that point we had unanimity, to organise this conference,
without taking a formal position for or against, but giving them an opportunity
to listen to the reasons for the bill and to express their own opinion.
When
Parliament is passing a bill which concerns, first of all, the Jews and the
Muslims, the least it can to is to listen to the Jews and to the Muslims.
|
O bispo da Islândia, David Tencer |
So I take it for granted that the members of
Parliament who presented this bill had not spoken to, or met with, the Muslim
or Jewish community, before they presented it.
It seems
not. I couldn't see any sign that they had any contact with the Muslim
Community before presenting this bill, and none at all with the Jewish, we
could see that when the person who presented the bill received news of the
reaction of rabbis from all over Europe a few days later and said, publicly, in
Parliament, that she didn't expect any reaction from the rabbis. That was a
strange statement, because if anyone was going to react, it was the rabbis.
That brings up an interesting point. I have
been following these debates in many countries in Europe and I have noticed
that there seem to be two different cases. In some it seems to be open
hostility to Muslims and Jews, disguised as care for children or for animal's
rights. In other cases it seems to stem from pure ignorance or religious
illiteracy. Is the latter the case here?
Absolutely,
absolutely. I would say there is a lot of ignorance about religious issues.
Icelanders
themselves, most of them are Christians, a third of the population belongs to
the Lutheran State Church, but very few people have deep notion of their
religion, and very few practice on a daily base. So for them religion is
completely secondary and they have difficulty understanding that for other
people religion is essential and an important part of their daily life.
Just
before this conversation I was attending a meeting of the Interfaith Forum to
evaluate the conference, and everybody agreed that it was a very good
conference, but one of them said "I got many reactions from people who
followed the conference on live stream and many of them, independently of one
another, told me that they had never realised that religion can be so important
for some people".
So that
means that many Icelanders don't have a clue about religion, and that reflects
the materialistic mentality in this country. Iceland is a very rich country,
very materialistic, and unfortunately religion is not very visible and not very
appreciated in the life of many Icelanders.
Could we describe it as a post-Christian
country?
Exactly.
You know Iceland was a Catholic country until the reformation, and then it
became Lutheran by decision of the King of Denmark, and slowly afterwards,
after the XIX Century, religion receded to the private sphere, at home, and
nowadays has a very small impact on the public life.
Going back to the issue at hand, you mentioned
that there was no reaction from the Interfaith Forum. But has the Catholic
Church itself taken a position?
Yes. Our
bishop wrote a letter which, right from the beginning, when the Muslims asked
the Interfaith Forum to react to the bill, that same day our bishop wrote a
letter to this Muslim leader, Salman Tamimi, to support his request and support
the request of the Jewish and the Muslim community, that circumcision should
not be banned in Iceland, by law.
He
pointed out that we Christians insist more on the spiritual aspect of
circumcision, like St. Paul says, first of all it is a question of conversion
of hearts, and not of physical circumcision. Nevertheless, he says, it is a
question of freedom of religion and we support the requests of these communities.
This is one specific threat... Are there other
threats to religious liberty in Iceland? For example, freedom of conscience,
issues with euthanasia and abortion?
I cannot
say anything about freedom of conscience, I'm not sure what the law is. I have
a friend who was working in a hospital and he was very much in the obstetrics
and maternity section, and that is the same section where they have abortions,
and he said this he would not do, it is against his conscience, and they
respected that.
So I
think there must be some law which protects freedom of conscience.
In fact
we should investigate this a little bit more, because a bill on Euthanasia is
also coming now. So it is important for us to know the legislative aspect.
There
are other threats to religion... In the city of Reykjavik, in the schools run
by the city, there is no teaching of religion anymore. It was the case until
around five or ten years ago, but now it is no longer permitted. There are some
classes of introduction to religion, where they talk a little bit about
Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, in a very superficial manner, but there are no
more religion classes in a proper sense. This leads to a generation, growing up
now, which has no notion at all about religion. They would stand in front of
the Pietá, in Rome, during their holidays, and ask “who is this lady, with this
dead man in her hands?” They do not know anything about religion...
Are there any private schools owned by
churches?
One,
which belongs to the Adventist Church. And they have religious classes, but
from the point of view of the Adventists, of course. But at least they teach
some Bible stories, and I know that some Lutheran people send their kids to
that school for that reason, because then at least they have some religious
instruction and hear something about the Bible.
I saw from your website that the majority of
the priests working in Iceland do not seem to be Icelandic. I would say that is
your case as well...
I am
French.
Could you characterise the Church in Iceland?
The
Church is a tiny minority in this country, we have about 13 thousand people
registered, which is not very much. The reality is probably a little bit more,
because there are many people who come for a shorter or longer period of time,
to work in Iceland, but they do not register in the Church, so the real number
is probably 20 thousand.
I think
around 90% of our Catholic Community are foreigners. They do not know any
Icelandic, they do not integrate, they come to work, they have no intention to
stay here, and that means that the Catholic Community is mainly Polish, around
70% of Polish origin, and the others are from many different countries, and so
for us it becomes very difficult to create a sense of community.
We do
not have a common language, the priests are from different countries and the
Icelanders from our Catholic Community are in a minority, and for them it is
very difficult, firstly to be in minority among Icelanders and then, within the
Catholic Church, to be a minority again. That makes it very difficult for
Icelanders, and that is really a challenge for us, to try to create occasions
to bring together all these different groups.
It also
means that the Catholic Church has almost no voice in the Icelandic society, or
very little, because we are almost all foreigners, so nobody listens very much
to the Catholic Church here.
When you were mentioning that some of the
member churches of the Interfaith Forum had no opinion and some agreed with the
prohibition of circumcision, just out of curiosity, I imagine the majority
church would be the Lutheran... What was their position?
There
are divided opinions also within the Lutheran Church, but the bishop of the
Lutheran Church had a very strong statement, that she cannot agree that
circumcision should be forbidden, and especially with a punishment of six years
of imprisonment.
In other countries where these issues have been
discussed we have seen that they produce a side effect, in that they bring the
different religious communities together. Has that happened in Iceland?
The
Interfaith Forum has existed for almost 12 years, and interreligious dialogue
has never come to such a deep level of friendship and dialogue. Today some
people even used the word love. We have never experienced that as much as until
now.