“We hope the Pope puts his diplomatic machine to work 100%”

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Metin Rhawi, from Suroyo TV and the European Syriac Union, regarding the importance of Pope Francis’ visit to Iraq. Excerpts of this interview were used here and here.

How important is this visit for the Christians in Iraq?

The Christians in Iraq, we have good knowledge about what they are thinking, and regarding this visit many people find it important, of course, because they belong to the Catholic Church, they are Chaldeans or Syriac Catholics, and that gives them a possibility to see their supreme leader in faith. But at the same time there are also clear voices from the same community who have reservations. 

We know the situation of our people, the Christians in Iraq. We are out in the diaspora, we have lost everything, it is about existing or not in their homeland. Since Daesh no rights have been acknowledged. We are happy that they are talking a bit more about the Yazidis now, and also remembering that there were Christians who suffered very much, and so they are also mentioned, but we have lost properties, our land, our cities, our villages, our rights and there has also been a very bad influence in the civil society, with people thinking that they do not actually need the Christians, they are not part of the system, part of the culture, and also some voices from Muslim leaders asking why the Pope should come to Iraque, since he is an infidel. 

Of course, Al-Khadimi and Barham Salih have expressed their gratitude and they are happy he is coming, they are doing their best and trying to show a good face, but both sides exist, in general, among the society, and also among the Christians. Some are very happy, but others are raising issues. We have been victims of genocide for over 100 years. The last big genocide was in 1915, prior to that, 1895 and then Daesh 2014. Nobody demanded acknowledgement or liability for what happened then and now. Rights do not exist. Nobody talks about the possibility of educating our children in our language, the right to be Christian and if we want to produce and consume alcohol it should not be a problem, but instead we see bombing of the stores that sell alcohol in Baghdad. So there are many rights that have been left out and it seems to those people that the Pope should ask about this situation before coming here and making sure that the rights should be acknowledged and given to the Christians, the Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs, because it gives some kind of legitimacy to the Baghdad regime, as if they had been successful in dealing with this sort of thing. But obviously the Pope will be having diplomatic discussions with them, I believe. 

But of course we know the Vatican has always had a very pragmatic approach to diplomacy, and have in fact been able to achieve successes and rights precisely through dialogue with regimes that are not always friendly, such as China.

Obviously, the Pope’s administration is very powerful and he is in a position that he can, indirectly, influence some foreign ministries. Obviously, the countries that are Catholic, and proud of it, listen to the Pope when he has something to say, we know that! That is why we, as the European Syriac Union have not expressed reservations about this visit. We think it is good, it is very important that he visit our homeland, because some of our people belong to his church, they are faithful to his church, and to him, and he should be asking about their rights. We hope that he will do that, we understand also that he is not a leader of a country who has an army to invade, or to impose sanctions, but we know that he has the capacity, when he wants to, to draw a line in the sand that should not be crossed. We hope that is his intention, because we see a lot of concern from the Pope and the cardinals and bishops around him have expressed this, that Christianity should not vanish from the Middle East, from Iraq. They are trying to do their best, but their strongest weapon is prayer... But we know that he has diplomacy and we believe that he will use it, of course. 

I am trying to show you the full picture. There are people on the ground with both opinions. I know that in Baghdedi and Bartella for three months a choir has been practicing singing hymns in Italian and in Latin, as well as in Arabic and Syriac, to show that they are proud to be Assyrian/Syriac/Chaldean, they have their own language, but they belong to Iraq at the moment, they are Iraqi and they are also Catholics. 

Disunity has always been a problem for Christians in the Middle East. Following the persecution by the Islamic State, has the situation improved?

If you look internally, when it comes to Christianity, the persecution woke us up from this strange dream that we are different empires living on the ground. In fact we are hospitalised on the ground, we are close to dying on the ground, but still the church leaders are not trying to find us a common line on the ground for Iraq. The Patriarchs and leaders of the different churches should cooperate much more. They are all Christian, but they have the same roots, they are the same people, there is no doubt that they are the same community, but they are divided in different "isms", when it comes to faith some are Catholics, some are Orthodox. They should have done much more.

Watching the political leaders, I can see that they are trying, but the ones who have more power, with seats in Parliament, consider that they are big enough to decline any interest that does not benefit them directly, they are not thinking as a community, but rather as parties. We are still divided, unfortunately, in that sense. It is tough to say that, it hurts, but it is the reality.

There are many reasons for the Pope not to visit at the moment. A recent bombing in Baghdad, the pandemic… The Pope has personally insisted on going. In your opinion is he being foolish, brave, or both?

We have seen in the news that even the previous Pope has expressed his fear and called upon Pope Francis to be careful and maybe not visit because of the security, and the Pandemic. I think that the Pope is not stupid, he is not foolish. He is doing a very good thing to show that he is with his people and that he has interests in Iraq because of the people and because the societies in the Middle East are based on faith and religion and he is a leader that mush show that he is close to his people. And he is doing that and we should really give him credit for that.

We hope he will get home safe and secure, and I think that will be arranged, I am not worried that something might happen to him. His faithful love him, and they won't get too close because of Covid. I think all this will be respected, and he knows how much this means to his people, because even if some say he should not visit before rights are guaranteed, there is a part of the community that is really insisting, and rightly so, that he is showing courage and showing that he is with them, that he knows that they exist there and that nobody should be able to force them out. So much so that he is even willing to visit them himself. It is an act of being with his people, and that is good, and we should give him credit. 

But of course, above all, we really hope he will run his diplomacy machine to work 100%, because it is a very critical situation, in Iraq and in the Middle East in general. 

In Iraq there are about 300 thousand Christians from different churches, of the Chaldean/Assyrian/Syriac people today. So, from being about 4 million 20 years ago, maybe more, to 1.8 million in 2003, or 1.5, according to the figures, now people say 200 thousand, others say 300 thousand, so we can see that it is like 10% left. We are not far away, in time, it could be in our lifetimes... This is frightening, and we need to be awake and I think the Pope is acting on that. 

"Nineveh is not a 'disputed area', it is our home"

Metin Rhawi

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my conversation with Metin Rhawi, of the European Syriac Union, about the situation in the Ninevah Plain and expectations for after the liberation of Mossul. The interview was used for several articles on the subject.

Esta é uma transcrição completa, no inglês original, da minha conversa com Metin Rhawi, da União Siríaca Europeia, sobre a situação na Planície de Nínive e as expectativas para depois da libertação de Mosul. A entrevista foi usada para uma série de artigos sobre o assunto.

Could you please introduce yourself and your organization?

I am head of Foreign Affairs for the European Syriac Union. What we do basically is advocacy for the Chaldean/Syriac/Assyrian people in our homeland, Old Mesopotamia, or Bet-Nahrain, as we call it, today Iraq, Turkey, Syria, parts of Lebanon and parts of Iran.

Our work is basically trying to raise the issue and the situation for this minority who have been the indigenous people of this region for the past 8.000 years or something. The situation for Christians is currently very crucial, losing almost everything they had, many having gone abroad.

Originally I was born in the Southeast of Turkey, in Midyat, and I belong to the Syriac Orthodox Church. But among our people we also have the Chaldean Church, the Apostolic Chuch of the Assyrians, the Maronite, the Melkite Church and the Orthodox... So there are many denominations.

How familiar are you with the situation in Iraq? Do you travel there frequently?

I have been in Iraq four times in the past one and a half years, and once to Syria. Unfortunately I couldn't make more trips to Syria because they closed the border from Iraq, so we need to go through the regime controlled airports in Syria, and that is not possible for me because I have taken a stance against the regime in Syria.

So I am well informed and I have seen with my own eyes and I have a network of political parties, NGOs, different associations and military militias in Iraq.

Why is there so much division among Christians? I counted 12 political parties and several militias.

I don't know if you could necessarily call this division, these are political views of the current situation, or at least how to solve the current situation, and as within any country or nationality you have many political views, many parties, among our community we have also many parties, at least 13 or 14 parties, so even more than the ones you discovered, and five of them have their own militias. I think this is due to the fact that you have the Baghdad regime on one side and the Kurdistan Regional Government controlled by Kurdistan Democratic Party on the other. These local politics are benefiting from the situation when you have political groups which are split, rather than joining forces.

In this case they can, at any time, play the situation against each other and this is what we are facing, unfortunately they are giving us some kind of hope from different sides, and at the same time our community, and the political parties, are in really great need of doing something for the people who have been tossed around in different directions, in order to reach their goal, to give something to the people, some kind of security and hope for the future in their homeland.

Then you see the big policies between these big nations who are interfering, Iran with the Shia concept, Turkey with the Sunni concept, and the Syrian regime and the United States and Russia, so it is quite puzzling situation and you need to have all the facts, trying to understand why these communities are so divided.

But you would agree that it is negative for the aspirations of the community to have so much political division?

It is, in one sense, if you don't have a common strategy and agenda, of course it is. Today what we can see with these political parties, different members of the European Parliament, different political associations and foundations, and us, we have reached an agreement between all of them among the community to have some common demands for the Nineveh Plain.

For instance, we are starting to have the same agenda in some very important and common issues, and that is the positive thing today that I would like to focus on. But of course it is quite frustrating that there are so many different factions within a small community like ours, because from two million ten years ago, we are today close to 400 thousand. So we can understand that we should not be so divided, because we are losing the grip, while discussing among ourselves what to do as the next step.

After the liberation of Mosul, do you expect to see conflict between Baghdad and Kurdistan over the disputed areas?

As for the “disputed areas”, that is their term, but we don't agree with it... The Nineveh Plain is not a disputed area, even though Baghdad and Erbil many times tried to make it appear so, this is the land of our ancestors since many thousands of years back. Bartella city has been home to Syriacs since about 5,000 years before Christianity, so how can it be a disputed area?

But, having said that, what is actually happening on the ground today is that you can see the regime trying to take the Northeastern part of the Nineveh plain, and the Peshmerga controlling the Southeastern part, so they have already, more or less, in practice, split the region, so now for us as Christians it is very important to really make it obvious that the Nineveh Plain is not open to be divided by these two political powers of Baghdad and Erbil.

As for the future, whether they are going to have an armed fight, I don't know, that is difficult for us to say. Until now they have been quite good at talking, they respect each other, but you never know... They have had ISIS in their faces for two years, what will happen in the future is very difficult to say. But for us, at least, we know that they are interfering on the ground, in a region which belongs to us and which they call a disputed area.

However, you can also say this is a totally disputed area, because even Turkey talks about being involved, so it is quite a difficult situation...

Miliciana cristã acende velas numa igreja no Iraque

So can I gather that you would prefer to see the Nineveh Plains not directly under the control of Baghdad or Erbil, but autonomous?

The situation in all of Iraq and also in Kurdistan is a great lack of democratic process. It is still the strong people who make decisions, there is empowerment of powers which are already quite strong and the local minorities are more or less powerless. So what we need to do is work to empower the local minorities, like the Yezidis, like the Shabaks, the Turkmen and the Assyrians, in order to have this autonomous region together, with different provinces within it. Whether it is going to be connected to Baghdad or to Erbil… I think this is a question of what the law says in Iraq today. Obviously it should be closer to Baghdad, but with very good relations with Erbil.

In our opinion we should have an open book with each other as a province or autonomous region both with Erbil and Baghdad and explain that this region can be an autonomous region. The ministers’ council of Baghdad, two years ago, declared that the Nineveh Plain can be an autonomous region for the Chaldean/Assyrian/Syriac community, but we have not seen anything more than talk. Erbil shows the same willingness: "If the community want their freedom and self-government in an autonomous region in the Nineveh plain, we will help them”, but still we cannot see more than one autonomous region and that is Kurdistan, and the rest is Iraq.

So we hope, really, that all this talk becomes real policy and for this we need the support of the United States and the European Parliament to support this region becoming an autonomous region, with the good help of Kurdistan and the very, very good help of Baghdad.

In the future, how it develops, I truly don't know, because you never know, in this region, what is going to happen a year from now, it is very difficult to say.

This scenario you described only seems to work if Kurdistan remains in Iraq. If Kurdistan becomes independent and the Christians are forced to choose between joining an independent Kurdistan or remaining in Iraq, what do you think the majority would choose?

I think it is very difficult today to say, and it would not be good for me to do that.

I think it is quite obvious that the Chaldean/Assyrian/Syriac people are in great need of support from both places. Even if Kurdistan declare themselves an independent country and sovereign state, for us the issue is to have good relations with Kurdistan, as a country, and also with Iraq, as a country. In that case we would have borders with both Erbil and Baghdad, so for us that is the big policy of the local strong powers today, what they decide to do and how they decide to do it, unfortunately there is a risk that could go to civil war, of course, because it would be a civil war, Kurdistan is an autonomous region in Iraq.

So it is quite difficult. I don't know which side people would like to choose, because unfortunately we have bad experience today from both sides.

Many people tend to think of the time when Saddam was ruling the country as a more peaceful time than today, although they knew he was a dictator. So you are familiar with the situation in Iraq and you can understand that the situation today is not good. Everybody was treated very badly under Saddam, but today it is not everybody, but certain groups are treated worse than others, certain groups are not given democratic rights, certain groups are not being defended the right way, certain groups have to rely on themselves even if they are not powerful enough. And if you take their powers from them, more and more, their situation is going to be very frustrating.

The more recent waves of persecution of Christians in Iraq have come from the Islamic State, but I remember at the time the people said that the ones who had taken their houses, were not IS, they were their Arabic neighbours. So it would seem that in the more recent years the more severe persecution came from the Sunni majority, whether Islamic State or the local Arabs. But I have also spoken many Christians from the region, many of whom off the record, and I asked them if they trust the Kurds, despite the fact that they fled to Kurdistan and the Kurds were the only ones who seemed determined to fight IS on the ground. And many of them answered saying that they remember that the Kurds also persecuted them in the past, so they are cautious. Is this your feeling as well, is there a feeling of suspicion between the Christians and the Kurds, or is this something of the past...

When you are looking forward to the future and to establish something you have trust in, and believe in for the future, you calculate with the past and your accumulated knowledge of what happened.

Of course we have very, very bad experience from each other. Both Arabs, Sunni and Shia or Kurds. In the Ottoman Empire, when Iraq was part of it, there were also Kurds persecuting us, as well as Arab Sunnis and Arab Shia. So I don't know today if we need to bring all those fears with us into the future, but at least we should know that this happened, not forget it, but we should forgive and continue to build a future together, along with the people living there, because obviously we cannot expel the people from there, the majority living there are Arab Sunni or Arab Shia or Kurds, so what we have to do is reconciliation.

Igreja vandalizada no Iraque

This is really important and we are working with that as the European Syriac Union also, along with other communities there, it is important to trust in the future, to trust in each other, what the Kurds and the Peshmerga did during the Islamic State invasion of the Nineveh Plain… Of course without them we would probably have lost everything, so we have to be thankful for that. But at the same time we know that they could obviously have done more for us, they could be standing there in the frontline, they could have given us weapons to defend ourselves along with them and probably, together, we could have fought ISIS before they became stronger, but to go into that issue of how and for what reason did ISIS become stronger and have the possibility to become stronger, as they have been for the past two years, that is a question which will take us too long to answer... And there are many conspiracy theories to look into of course...

Obviously people on the ground, whether Sunni or Shia, have also hurt us and whether Kurds or Arabs, they have also hurt us, but we need to trust in each other in some way, because we will be neighbours anyway, we need to build a common future together and that can be done with respect and democracy. And that quality type of living today does not exist in Iraq, nor in Kurdistan, really, because you can feel the tension, I have been in Kurdistan many times, and you can feel the tension, where you feel that you are not a first rate citizen, because you are not Kurd, because you are Chaldean, Syriac or Assyrian. And because you don't feel you belong to a strong party, because parties dominate Kurdistan today. More than the government dominating Kurdistan, it is the KDP that dominates Kurdistan. And that is also an issue...

What we would like to have is Mr. Barzani should stand up and say OK, if this is what the Chaldean/Syriac/Assyrians want, this is not a disputed area, this is your area, we give it over to you, we can help you, in what way do you need help from us?

And the same thing from Baghdad, because they have a decision from their ministers’ council from two years ago, they should say the thing: This is what you want, tell us how we can help you.

And then, I think the European Parliament, the United States Government and even the Russians would understand that this is ok, this is a good situation where we can also be supportive and find common solutions.

Of the five different militias that I found in my research, the Nineveh Plain Forces, the Nineveh Plain Protection Units, Dwekh Nawsha, Qaraqosh Protection Committee and the Tiger Guards... Are some of these considered pro-Kurd and others Pro-Baghdad?

In the end, whether they like to say that or not, some of us must be more pro-the side that gives us the permission to be a military militia.

The Nineveh Plain Units answer to the Government of Baghdad, the Ninevah Plain Forces are from Peshmerga ministry, from the Kurdistan region. This is why we operate in different places. If we belong to Peshmerga, obviously we cannot move in the areas where Baghdad moves, and vice versa.

Dwekh Nawsha is unfortunately a very, very small group and there are also the Nineveh Plain Guards Protection Units from Barzani's side also, the Chaldean Syriac Assyrian Popular Council. That is pro-Kurdistan, more obviously than the others.

Then you have the Syriac Falcons, newly established, by Salwon Momika, of the Syriac Democratic Union who was held hostage for almost two weeks recently, in fights. He established himself as a political party and also militia. The first movement within the Syriac Chaldean Assyrian group established in the liberated areas, and he faced problems, of course, and he was held captive, but now he was released.

But what is not working there, what we are obviously being stopped from, we made it clear to our militias, on behalf of the Syriac European Union, and along with Mr. Lars Adaktusson, that we need to find a common agenda for the military unification also, in order to become an army for the Nineveh Plain in the future. But of course neither Baghdad nor Erbil like this, and that is obvious. Maybe they don't like me to say that, but I will do it anyway.

Related: "Kurdish independence is necessary to avoid further atrocities"

Christians “cautiously joyful” with liberation of Nineveh Plains

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my conversation with Swedish Assyrian journalist and activist Nuri Kino about the liberation of Qaraqosh and other Christian towns and villages in the Mossul region. Read the news story, in Portuguese, here.

Transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista ao jornalista e activista sueco/assírio sobre a libertação de Qaraqosh e de outras vilas e aldeias cristãs na região de Mossul. A reportagem está aqui.

We have had conflicting reports about the situation in Qaraqosh. From your information, what is the situation on the ground?

The news regarding the Christians is that Bartella, a town of about 30 thousand inhabitants prior to ISIS, has been fully liberated. We have received videos and pictures of the church bells ringing. That is of course very satisfying.

When it comes to Qaraqosh we received pictures of the main hospital being liberated, the town hall buildings and also the Iraqi Army headquarters. But it is very hard to know if it is totally liberated or not. We are also receiving conflicting information about that.

I just spoke to two of the priests from Qaraqosh and they also have no full information, but the Iraqi army and some of the Christian forces are supposed to be inside Qaraqosh.

Two days ago we received information that it had been liberated. Then information came a couple of hours later saying that there were about 20 ISIS suicide bombers and snipers left in Qaraqosh and they were shooting people from the rooftops. Also, one of the biggest problems is the mines. There are a lot of mines around the city, both anti-personnel mines and street mines.

But we believe that Qaraqosh will be liberated today. [Saturday 21^st October]

How does that make you and other Christians feel?

Qaraqosh is about 70% Syriac Catholic and 30% Syriac Orthodox and I am Syriac Orthodox. For us there is no difference whether it is in southeast Turkey, where I was born, or in Syria or Iraq, or in Iran or in Lebanon. We are all the same nation, the same ethnicity, the same people with different names: Assyrian, Syriac, Chaldean...

Of course, after more than two years of ISIS in our home towns, we are very happy to see it, though we are also careful and cautious, because we never know how things will turn.

Look at what happened in Kirkuk yesterday... All of a sudden sleeping terrorist cells in Kirkuk started to hit the street, more than 20 suicide bombers. They also kidnapped some people and threatened to kill them, and battles are ongoing in Kirkuk, which is also a bit Iraqi city.

So I would say that we are cautiously joyful.

Also, after the liberation there is a lot of work to be done for our people to return to the Nineveh plane, where Bartella and Qaraqosh are. The Swedish MEP Lars Adaktusson is presenting a new resolution in the European Parliament about self-administration in the Nineveh Plane and two other provinces in Northern Iraq, so that these people can feel that they get their dignity back and rule their own areas, or at least get some power in the administrations, so that the inhabitants can feel confident to come back.

Also it is about dignity, so as to get their dignity back. The same thing is going on in Washington DC, there are political movements and political solutions – hopefully – so that people can move back.

In Iraq, before the fall of Saddam, approximately 1.3 million Christians lived there. After the fall of Mossul, we don't know, but we estimate that there are more not more than 250 thousand left.

So more than one million have already left the country, and people are emigrating every day, because they lost hope in the world leaders to protect them. But we do have some hope in what is happening these days, in the liberation of Nineveh and Mossul, and we also have hope in the political solutions that will be on the table over the coming weeks.

Are Christians afraid to be caught in between Baghdad and the Kurds, over who actually controls this region...

That has been going on since the fall of Saddam, it’s nothing new. It’s not a question of being afraid, we know it’s a fact, it’s been a fact for a decade now. So that is why we are asking for self-administration, so as not to be caught in the middle.

Will Bagdad and Kurdistan accept that idea?

Well we hope on the European Union and on Washington and the UN.

A little ringtone for your Saturday ... the church bells ringing in Bartella outside Mosul just liberated from #ISIS pic.twitter.com/qncchINW6Y

— Mindy Belz (@mcbelz) October 22, 2016

Kidnapped Christians in Syria: "It keeps repeating itself, since 1915"

Nuri Kino with Syriac bishops in Sweden

Full transcript of Nuri Kino's explanation about the situation in Syria, where 250 Christians have been kidnapped. News report, in Portuguese, here.

What information do you have about the kidnappings in Al-Quarayatayn?

Isis went in to the city and about 1500 people managed to flee. Most of them came to the churches of Homs. We spoke several times to the churches and the Syriac Orthodox Bishop managed to make a list of missing people. He and volunteers, clergymen and civil volunteers registered everyone that fled and asked them if they had any missing neighbours, friends or family members. Then they went through again and after several interviews with those who registered they completed a list of 250 missing people.

These 250 are all Christians?

They are all Syriac Orthodox or Syriac Catholic.

Could there also be people from other minorities who have also been kidnapped?

That we do not know, because we only spoke with the churches.

But was the city of  Al-Quarayatayn majority Christian?

Nearly only Christians.

There has been no information on the part of the kidnappers, no demands...

No. The only thing we know is that their cell phones have been switched off. So when relatives, family members and the churches try to reach them there is no answer.

This is not the first time there has been a mass abduction. The most recent one was near Hassakeh...

From the Khabour area there are still 222 people abudcted.

Do you know if they are alive?

Well those that have been released have told us about their whereabouts, that women and small girls and boys and men were separated from eachother, and the women were held in a small room and had to schedule their sleeping. That is all we really know now.

At the time there were people who had been released and said they had been ordered released by Shariah judges...

That information has not been reliable, some said that, others said they had been released because of health issues. Mostly elderly people.

The fact that they were not just executed, even though they were a burden for ISIS, may be a sign of hope, no?

Definately. But we also know from kidnappings from Mosul or the Nineveh, of at least one Assyrian woman, and an Assyrian kid who were given to ISIS members as gifts. So it’s devastating, and people keep fleeing... Those who managed to flee from Khabour went to Hassekeh, and then from Hassekeh to Qamishli, from Qamishli back to Khabour, where there were a lot of mines. Now they don't know where to flee. It keeps repeating itself, it’s been repeating itself since 1915, then 1933 and so on, and now, since 2004 we keep reportiong and reminding the world about this genocide, but no action is taken to save the Christian/Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriacs/Armenians and other Christians in Syria and Iraq.

I don't know, I have no words besides that one lion was killed and the whole world was furious, now all these people are getting kidnapped and slaughtered, why isn't the world furious about that? Why? Somebody needs to give an answer.

And its not just Christians, it’s also Muslims. ISIS is getting more and more violent, against everyone.

One year ago Mosul fell and the world woke up to ISIS. Did you imagine that one year later we would be in the same situation?

Yes. We also actually predicted Mosul, and the Nineveh plains. For years, in both DC and Brussels, we reported about it, we feared it. So it’s very sad and horrible, terrifying, but it’s not surprising.

You live in Sweden, where there is a big Assyrian community. Are there relatives of those who were kidnapped?

I will actually see one of the relatives of those from Habour, she has 42 of her family members kidnapped, and I spoke to a young man and a lady today who have relatives missing from the Homs area, but they are not sure if they are kidnapped or not, because they are not on the list that they saw.

"Christians were given three choices, Yazidis only two: 'Convert or die'"

This is a full transcript of my interview with Mirza Dinnayi, advisor for the Kurdish Regional Government and Yazidi activist, who spends his time between Iraq and Germany. The news report, in Portuguese, is here.

Transcrição integral da minha entrevista a Mirza Dinnayi, conselheiro do Governo Regional Curdo e activista pela causa dos yazidi, que passa o seu tempo entre o Iraque e a Alemanha. A reportagem pode ser lida aqui.

Who are the yazidis?

The Yazidis are an ancient religion, about 5000 years old, they are about 500,000 in Iraq and outside of Iraq there are communities in Turkey, Syria, Armenia, Georgia and also a big community in Germany and other countries. Altogether there are about 1 million, half of them are in Iraq. The biggest community is from the Sinjar region – where there are about 320.000 – which was attacked by ISIS.

Because the Yazidi religion is one of the oldest monotheistic religions, believing in one God, although different from Islam and Christianity, they were attacked by Islamic State, which killed more than 3000, kidnapped more than 5000 and raped and enslaved thousands of girls and women. They they say the Yazidis are infidels, in the eyes of the Islamic State, because they are not mentioned in the Koran, which is why they kill them. Now we have more than 400,000 who escaped from their houses from Sinjar and the other areas of the Ninevah plains which are now under the control of ISIS.

What has happened to the communities which had to flee, did they all find refuge with the Kurds?

Yes, we have 400,000 Yazidi refugees in Kurdistan.

What conditions are they living in?

The conditions are very bad, because most of the tents in these camps are very simple tents, which are not prepared for the Winter or the cold. Also the tents which were distributed by UNHCR are not fireproof, they burn in 45 seconds, they are made of nylon so with a simple fire they are gone in 45 seconds.

Every week there are fire accidents in the tents, there are health problems. They are living in a very bad situation, there are no economic perspectives for the people, the people have no resources, no houses, and the local and Iraqi government cannot help them because they are too many. The international organizations are not enough because the situation is very bad and they cannot fill all the needs.

We are talking in general about refugees, but of course many of these people are your friends and family…

Yes, of course. My own town of 35 thousand people, all of them escaped and all of them are living in these tents.

Yazidis being evacuated from Sinjar

Did the fact that they were persecuted bring the Christians and the Yazidis closer together?

The Yazidi and Christian communities are still friends. In this situation they have the same problem with ISIS, with one difference; the Christians were not immediately attacked. During the occupation of Mosul they were given three choices, to convert, flee or pay a tax, the Yazidis were only given two choices: convert or be killed.

Also, ISIS did not take hostages from the Christian population, because they say the Christian religion is mentioned in the Koran, so they can be treated a little bit better than the Yazidis. But both Christians and Yazidis are suffering very much at the hands of ISIS.

What solution do you think is possible for minorities in Iraq? Do you defend the creation of a safe haven, as some defend, or do you believe that these minorities should have their own defence forces?

I think the international community is now responsible for finding a solution for these minorities in Iraq and there are two solutions which should be done, one of them at least. The first is to establish an autonomous region with international support and international peacekeeping forces support in this area of Sinjar and Nineveh plains, or otherwise to help these people leave Islamic countries, because we don't know what will happen in the coming years. We don't know if a new Islamic group will be established. ISIS had roots in Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaeda had roots in Iraq...

Every day there is another radical Islamist group and if there is no solution for this area, to protect these people and to establish peace in this country, it will be impossible to remain.

It is very difficult, most of the people there are helpless and the international community has unfortunately been silent and has not supported these minorities in Iraq.

We know that some Yazidis have chosen to remain in Sinjar mountain and some have taken up arms to defend themselves. Why have they decided to remain in this mountain, where they are more exposed to the Islamic State?*

In the mountain we have some religious heritage, some Yazidi temples. We have some fighters, because they are sure that nobody will help them, the situation of the IDPs in Kurdistan is already very bad so they decided to stay.

We have about 8000 people, some of them are fighters. We have 1250 families, or more, there. They decided to stay because they have no perspectives in Kurdistan or outside. They think it is better to die there than to be refugees in a camp, in a tent, without perspectives, without anything.

Every Yazidi is now waiting to know what the international community ca do for them. Will they support us politically? But until now it has not happened, unfortunately.

Do you believe the Islamic State can be defeated, and how?

What has been done against the Islamic State until now has been very week. We cannot win the war against the Islamic State with only airstrikes. We need forces on the ground, not only from the international community, we need them also from the Sunni world, they should fight ISIS, they should stand against the Islamic State because it was established with a background of Islamic Religion. Now it is the responsibility of the Islamic world, especially the Sunnis, to define themselves, they work against ISIS and the fundamentalist Islam. This is their responsibility, to fight, not only through air raids, but on the ground. We need forces on the ground, otherwise it is not possible to fight ISIS.

ISIS was able to flourish because of widespread discontent among the Sunni population. Do you foresee a future in which Sunnis and Shia can live in peace in Iraq?

I am pessimistic. I don't think that the Sunni and Shia will be together in a closed centralized country. I think the best solution is for them to establish a federal system, governed by moderate people, not radicals, who can serve their population and represent them.

The problem now in Iraq is that most of the Sunni politicians are not representing their communities, the ones in Baghdad, most of them are corrupt, they are working in the Government for their own profits, for their own benefits, and therefore they cannot represent their community.

The people don't know who represents the Sunni community in Iraq, we don't know. Is it ISIS? A radical group? The Ba’ath party remnants? Or the politicians sitting in parliament? We don't know.

Most of the Sunni regions are outside of the control of the Iraqi government, outside of the control of Sunni politicians, and therefore they cannot represent their communities. They should choose Sunni politicians who are not criminals, who are not ISIS supporters, who are not Al-Qaeda supporters, who can serve their citizens and serve the country. This is the problem we have now in Iraq.

Yazidis no monte Sinjar, cercados pelo Estado Islâmico

They have also taken in thousands of refugees, do the minorities feel gratitude towards the Kurds? How are relations between them?

The Kurdish government are doing what they can to support these IDPs and refugees. I think the situation now is that there is no conflict between the Yazidis, or the Christians, and the Kurds.

You can imagine if you have a country with a population of 5 million people and you send them two million refugees, it is a catastrophe. They cannot manage the problem. We know this. But as I said the best solution for these minorities, the Yazidis, the Christians and the Shabak is to establish a type of autonomous area for them. This solution should be implemented with the cooperation of the Iraqi government. 

Kurds are, mostly, Sunni. Is there also danger of radical Islam taking hold among the Kurds?

Yes, of course. We, the members of the minorities are afraid of radical people in Kurdistan. We are happy that the Government is secular, but in the community there are radicals and the Government should speak out against them.

It may be a small number, but over the last 20 years there was a type of islamization of the street, and this led to big problems, so that whereas the Kurdish people in the past were not very religious, there are now some religious people in the community.

There are some Kurds from the KRG who joined ISIS, a small amount, I don't know the number, maybe 300 or 500 fighters, more or less. There is fundamentalism in Kurdistan and we are trying to fight it, to become a liberal community in Kurdistan. We hope for this and we are working towards it, all of us.

What is your opinion on Turkey in the midst of all this?

The negative role of Turkey in support of the Islamic State is well known. Everybody knows that at the beginning Turkey played a very negative role in support of the Islamic groups, especially Jhabat al-Nusra, and other Islamic groups against Bashar al-Assad.

So now we have this problem: Turkey is under a big question mark, will it cooperate with the international community, first to stop the resources of ISIS and to stay in a positive situation? Until now its role has not been positive. Turkey cannot say "I will be independent about the issue of ISIS", because Turkey played a negative role and now they should change their policies and be positive, rather than negative.

Yazidi refugees in Erbil

All this instability has its roots in the Syrian civil war. Is there an end in sight?

They should find an outcome for the situation in Syria, peace should be established between all groups, with all opposition groups and non-opposition groups, otherwise we will have a massacre against the Alawites, for example.

All the Syrian players should work together, without Assad in power, but the Alawites should participate in planning the new country in a democratic way.

*Since this interview was conducted, the siege of Sinjar has been broken by Kurdish forces.

“Western silence on genocide against minorities in Iraq is shocking”

Sister Hanan Youssef

Full transcript of my interview with sister Hanan Youssef, of the Good Shepherd Sisters, who works with refugees in Lebanon. News item, in Portuguese, here.

Transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista à irmã Hanan Youssef, das Irmãs do Bom Pastor, que trabalha com refugiados no Líbano. A reportagem pode ser lida aqui.

You work in Lebanon. Are you Lebanese?

Yes, I am Lebanese. I was born in the South of Lebanon, near the border with Israel, but I had to leave when I was 8 years old, I couldn't go back, because Israel occupied this area for many years. After the liberation it was taken by Hezbollah. I never saw it again.

Now I am in the Upper North of Beirut, in a Shia Muslim area, but we also have Christians, Sunnis, Iraqi refugees, Syrian refugees, a mixed population.

Are you Maronite?

Yes, I am Maronite, it is the biggest church in Lebanon. It is a Catholic Church. St. Maron, patron of this church, lived in the fourth century. We have always been Catholic. We have our own oriental liturgy, we have married priests, which shocks the Latin rite a little bit, but we are Catholic.

Your main work is with refugees. Are most from Iraq?

Yes.

The Good Shepherd sisters opened a centre for street children in 2005. In 2006, with the War against Israel, we took charge of a dispensary, a clinic, St. Anthony's clinic. And we welcomed 5000 Shia refugees from an area which Israel bombarded. After that they left and we started to welcome Iraqi refugees, from 2008 to now. All the Christian Chaldean refugees from Iraq came through our centre.

We took a decision as a congregation to be close to this population, because they were very disoriented and needed lots of help, a lot of listening. Their Arabic is a little bit difficult to understand by other NGO's, so they felt more comfortable to come to our centre and all of them, without exception, liked coming here and we took the decision to welcome them, to be beside them and that is why we continue to receive them until today, with the crisis in Mosul, caused by the jihadists, many Iraqis fled Iraq.

In the beginning we welcomed a lot of young couples with their children, they were leaving Iraq forever, but nowadays we are welcoming also elderly people.

Before travelling to Portugal I received a blind woman, in a wheelchair, who is 85 years old. She was forced to leave her home. She was disoriented, very sad, very depressed. I was really sad. I thought to myself, what if it were me, blind and 85 years old, forced to leave my house, my area and all my life behind me? I was really speechless before her.

It is an inhuman situation, This population is forced to leave everything and to flee.

This woman and these more recent refugees are the ones coming from Mossul and the Nineveh Plains... We had heard that many were taking refuge in Arbil, but there are also some travelling to Lebanon?

Yes. When they reach Arbil, if they have money to buy a plane ticket they choose to go to Lebanon and submit a request to UNHCR to get a Visa to go to the West. All of Iraqis dream of leaving Iraq forever. Young people, but now also the elderly, are forced to do it.

Before coming over I also received two young men who came to the dispensary and they were crying: “Sister, we don't need help, we need work”. I listened to them. They said: “Sister, our parents sold everything, jewellery, cars, everything to buy plane tickets for us. We are here now, but we need to bring our family with us. Please help us to find work, to be able to pay for the ticket for our parents.”

Christian refugees in Iraq, fleeing Islamic State

And they were crying. It is unusual to see oriental men crying. I was disoriented and speechless before them, there have been many cases like that.

What is happening in Iraq is genocide. I said that 10 years ago. We are facing a very big genocide in Iraq. It is empty… all the Christians are outside Iraq now. In 1996 there were one million, nowadays we talk about 150.000, it is really a big genocide in Iraq.

Of course there is also a terrible situation in Syria. Do you also have Syrian refugees?

Of course. Our centre receives refugees from Syria, Iraq, other minorities who don't have any place to go. We offer them three kinds of service: Primary healthcare, social help and psychological help.

We have 32 doctors, of all specialities, to help them, because in Lebanon healthcare is private and very expensive, the state is unable to offer the refugees help, because there are four million Lebanese and we received 2.5 million refugees, more than half of the population of Lebanon.

Lebanon has been at war for about 30 years. The entire infrastructure has been destroyed. We don't have enough schools for all the children, enough places in hospitals, enough potable water. It is a big, big challenge.

It is not a developed country, because of the war everything has been destroyed, and to receive so many refugees is a huge crisis. They become poorer and poorer, with no jobs, the Syrian refugees make the society very weak and vulnerable. They are a huge number and among these refugees many jihadists have entered.

The borders are open, with no control, which is why many Jihadists are now in Lebanon, causing trouble, fighting against the Lebanese army, to control a Sunni majority area, as you hear in the news, every day we have soldiers killed by jihadists, and many such things.

The Syrian refugees live in Lebanon with no job. They are killing, stealing, they are violent. They need a place to live but the state is unable to help them and the international community didn't help Lebanon as much as we need. That is why there is really a big, big crisis in Lebanon. That is why we, as the Good Shepherd Sisters, need to be helped. I thank Aid to the Church in Need (ACN), which has helped us to face this crisis.

We know that ACN is one source of help, where do you get the rest from?

We have a few others, rich benefactors in Lebanon, who can help a little bit. In terms of healthcare services, the UN gives us about 10% of the budget of the dispensary. The big NGO which helps is ACN, in social issues, basic needs, clothes, milk, diapers for babies, hygiene kits, the basic for these refugees.

It is possible that the crisis in Syria will spread to Lebanon. If this happens, there is Syria on one side, Israel, with a closed border on the other, and the sea. Where will all these refugees, plus the new ones, go? Is there anywhere left to go?

Nowhere.

If this happens it will be a big war in the Middle East. Until now Lebanon is still stable in the Middle East, because the army has taken control of the situation. I don't know if the army will be able much longer, because it is a week army after 30 years of war. But if the war in Syria spreads to Lebanon it will be the end of the Middle East and the end of the presence of the Christians in the Middle East. We hope that this will not happen. If it does, it will be very difficult.

Lebanon is the country in the Middle East with the highest proportion of Christians. Do most of the Christians in Lebanon feel a special solidarity with the Christians from Syria and Iraq, or do they see them as a problem that they want to solve?

No, we see them as our brothers and sisters.

Winter is making life even more grim for refugees

They are like us. When the Islamic State took over Qaraqosh and all the Christians from Qaraqosh fled, many coming to Lebanon, the solidarity was exemplary. All the churches in Lebanon appealed and all the Christians collected a lot of food, a lot of clothes, a lot of money to help these refugees. We are poor, but even the poorest family gives something to help. It was really an example of Christian solidarity.

No, we don't see them as a problem, we are present to help them and to help ourselves at the same time. We are all a minority, refugees in the Middle East with this big crisis with the Islamic State. We are afraid, in Lebanon as well. We are waiting and praying a lot. Before coming I was thinking about St. Paul: “For you Lord we are facing all persecutions and all kinds of troubles, but we hope in you because you love us”, and our only hope now is the strength which comes from God.

The Shiites have been defending the Christians in Syria. Does the future of the Christians rely on an alliance with the Shia, including of course Iran?

I don't think so. As Christians in Lebanon, in the Middle East, all our lives I, myself also, lived with Muslims, Sunni and Shia. The Jihadists are not Muslim, in my opinion, they use Islam to spread their ideology. But I don't think that the Christians should count on the Sunnis or the Shias. Citizenship is for all, Christians, Sunnis and Shias. We share this country and we need to be recognized as Sunnis, Shias and Christians. I don't think we should be part of any... we are open to cooperate and share this country with our neighbours. We are not party to any political issues. In my opinion we can't count on any party. We need to cooperate with all the Muslims.

Has the response from Europe been what you expected?

Really I am shocked by this silence. There is a big silence about this genocide in the Middle East against the minorities, not just Christians. It is a big shock for me that Europe is so silent, sometimes to save a dog we have demonstrations in the streets. But every day there are lives destroyed in the Middle East and nobody says anything. It is a big silence and we are shocked. Why this silence? As if Human Life is without value. We are shocked, yes, we need a lot of support from this population, we need them to be awake! Why this silence? I can't understand.

Why are we still sending arms to the Middle East? To the jihadists or to the other parties?

We need them to stop sending arms, to stop the arms trade and then many things would change in the Middle East.

Pope Francis will be speaking to the European Parliament next Tuesday. What would you like him to say about the Middle East?

He is saying many beautiful things. He is the only voice to speak of peace and stopping sending weapons to the Middle East. I would like him to say please give the Middle East Peace. Enough war, enough lives destroyed. Enough children in the street, enough children forced to fight. Enough selling women in the market. Enough! It is inhuman and we need to be more human. I hope that he will awaken the conscience of the European Union.

What has happened in the Middle East is really incredible. We sell women in the market like objects. It is inhuman! Stop, please stop.

There are many different Christian churches in Lebanon. Have they been able to speak in one voice?

I don't know if they cooperate. I think there is much solidarity amongst them to face the crisis. Because it is a very critical moment in our history as Christians in the Middle East, a very critical moment. We stay or not, it is a question of life, of presence in the Middle East, that is why I think all the churches are united to face this crisis. We need to be united and to be close to each other to face this crisis. It is our survival, our life on the line.

Christian refugees in Erbil, Iraqi Kurdistan

Are there members of your congregation in Syria?

Yes. We have two communities in Syria. One in Homs and one in Maaloula, and a third on the border, in the Bekaa valley. The sisters are very afraid for their lives.

They remained in Homs and Maaloula?

Yes. They chose to stay with the population. They risk their lives, but as all the Christians who also took the decision to stay, we need to stay among our people. We can't abandon them. It is not possible.

Many people wonder how they can help. Materially they can give money or goods to Aid to the Church in Need, or other NGO's. In terms of prayer, what would you ask of them? Is there a special saint in Lebanon they could pray to?

Yes. Our patron is Our Lady of Lebanon. Our Lady of Lebanon and Our Lady of Fatima, of course, are the same. We need prayer. Before money, before anything else, we need our brothers and sisters in the Western churches to think about us, in heart and prayer. If we feel that we are supported by our sister churches in the west we will be stronger. We have faith of course. We need prayer, we need presence and we need people to be aware of our persecution.

"We will be the salt and the light of the Arab World"

This is a full transcript, in English, of my interview with Patriarch Gregorios III Laham, of the Melkite Church. His Beatitude speaks of the situation of Christians in the Middle East but also about particularities of the Eastern Catholic Churches, such as ordination of married men outside of the ancestral territories of the Patriarchates, etc. The news report can be seen here, in Portuguese, but is accompanied by a video which is in English, subtitled in Portuguese. The interview was conducted in English, some of the Patriarch's answers were edited for clarity, but always respecting his meaning. 

Transcrição integral, no inglês original, da entrevista ao Patriarca Gregório III, da Igreja Melquita. A notícia encontra-se aqui. 

You are in Portugal to speak about the situation of the Christians in Iraq and Syria. What will you be telling your audiences?

First, we are very thankful that you are so aware in Portugal and elsewhere about this situation, especially of the Christians as part of society in Syria. We are especially thankful to Aid to the Church in Need.

The events in Iraq in June, with the expulsion of about 120.000 Christians, and also some Yezidis from Mosul and Nineveh, were a shock for the whole Middle East. It had a great impact in Syria, because the Syrians were more optimistic, the situation was better, the government was doing well, the army was having more successes, but with this shock of Iraq the people were disappointed, skeptical, pessimistic, and more and more people are leaving today, because they are afraid that something similar will happen to them. 

Currently the main places of fear are near the border with Turkey, near Aleppo, in the North... Aleppo is a real prison, it has been for months. Several times without water, without electricity, and sometimes without food. But they are very courageous, and very united, the bishops and the people, but many left, especially the rich people who could help others. And many factories have been destroyed...

Damascus is less dangerous, it is the capital. We hear bombs and planes attacking, but more from the government against these mercenaries and bandits and groups. There are about 2000 groups working in Syria, fighting in Syria, against the government.

People say it is a civil war, but I can't say it is a civil war. Civil war means different factions of the country fighting each other. Here you have a government and mercenaries and groups from inside, from outside, fighting, attacking, kidnapping, and so on. It is not a civil war, it is not even a real revolution. It is a crisis, which is bigger because of the influence and invasion of other groups from outside. 

Daily we hear that people from Holland, Britain, Germany, are going to Syria. It is against human and natural law to go from Holland to fight against me in Syria, or to destroy my house. It's not like the first or the second world wars, not even like the war in Lebanon, there it was a real civil war, here it is all militias, militias, militias. 

The chaos is the biggest danger today. You don't know. Every place is safe in Syria and every place is dangerous.

Here in the West we see Christians being persecuted. Many people want to help. But what can they do?

First of all, really, if we had a consensus with the Arab world and Europe, to stop the war, this is the best help, because even with the huge humanitarian help by international organizations, the churches, Catholic and others, in spite of that, we can't cope with all the needs of our people. 

Daily we have more people needing help. For example, in my Patriarchate in Damascus we started a small community for about 300 families. Now we have 8000, and everyday more and more.

Children are dying, there are no schools, little food, now the winter, medicine, operations, handicapped people, kidnapped people and ransoms. Daily we have huge numbers and different sorts of tragedies and needs.

We have had lots of help, from the Vatican, Aid to the Church in Need, the Holy Father, Congregation for the Eastern Churches, Cor Unum, Ouvre d'Orient, Caritas, they are helping a lot, as well as our international friends. It is a lot of help, but we are not able to cope with the needs of the people. 

The second is really to stop the traffic of weapons. Pope Francis said that the biggest problem today is weapon trafficking... In Europe there are economic problems, and the weapons business and the war are ways of improving the economy in Europe and America.

For me, as a priest, as a bishop – very independent, very free, and with no tension or influences – we don't need these wars in the Middle East to change. We can change without that. The Islamic world was changing already before ISIS and so on, in general you could see development in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, without these wars and crises... we don't need it.

It is really an awful war and Europe is responsible for that, with the USA and with Russia. All together. I am sure that if one day the interests of Russia and America coincide we will have peace. As long as they don't realize how to do that, we will continue to have war. It is not ISIS... sure they have influence, but the real problem is somewhere else.

Assad warned that a change of regime would open the doors to radical Islam. Is the regime vital to coexistence?

The situation in Syria, the conditions of life together, coexistence, freedom of religion and of worship, churches, schools, development of industry and so on, is not only the result of the regime or the Ba'ath party. 

The party did a lot for the development of the country, but this coexistence, this freedom, is not a result of this party, which was founded by a Christian. It is an ancient tradition. In the time of the Ottomans, the best place to live, for Christians, was Syria and Lebanon, called Sham. These were countries where Christians could live. 

When you go out to other Arab countries, like the Emirates, the Gulf states, it is another Arabic Islamic situation. But the place where Christians used to live in security, in freedom and coexistence, cordiality, together, flourishing and respected, are these countries. So I wonder, what can these movements bring us more? I don't know. 

If there is an alternative, what is it? Who can bring me, as a Christian, as a Muslim, as Druze, as Shiite, more than I have now in terms of living together, peaceful coexistence of churches and mosques, living together in different quarters, with Christian business men having more Muslim employees than Christians... It is wonderful. I like to tell the Western countries, we live together better than in some countries in Europe. 

Many Christians were taken up by the pan-Arab nationalist movements in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Has that dream died?

Well, it is in great danger. Not because of Islamism, these movements are instruments for something else. For me the biggest danger and the biggest problem and cause of this instability in the Middle East is the failure by Europe and the Arab world to solve the conflict between Palestine and Israel.

Iraqi Christian refugees in Erbil

I served for 26 years as bishop in Jerusalem, before becoming Patriarch. I can tell you that all the problems in these countries are related to the problem in Israel and Palestine. As long as there is no solution it means this conflict will be an excuse for many countries, including Arab countries, to dominate their people, not to do what they have to do, and not to liberate and give freedom and development. They spend a lot of money on weapons, but for nothing. The greatest interest is for Israel. 

Security for Israel? I am ok with that. But also security for Palestinians. The security of Israel is more in the hands of the Palestinians than in the hands of Europe and America, because as we say in Arabic, your neighbor is more important than your own house.

The Holy Father Pope Francis, when he came to Jordan in May, said there are two keys to peace in the Middle East and the world. First, a real political and diplomatic, comprehensive, consensus solution for the crisis in Syria.

Second, justice for Palestine. These two things have to be considered in all policies. But they are not considered.

The European Union is 50 years old. I told them, look, you have 50 years of peaceful coexistence. Please help Arabs, don't divide Arabs. Help us to be united. It is better humanity, for development, for young generations and also for peace for you. 

If we solve the Palestinian Israeli conflict we will have less aggressive Islam in Europe. We will have better Islam in Europe, they can be better integrated, there will be more understanding and more dialogue. The danger for you is bigger than the danger for us. Islam in Europe will be more dangerous than in our lands, because we have a long experience of living together, we will be successful, we will live after this crisis. So for the sake of Europe and the Islamic presence in Europe, you need to help solve the problem.

Holland is now willing to recognize the State of Palestine. I asked the Holy Father, when I was with him on the 20th of October in Rome, I said please, be the first state, not the last, to recognize Palestine and you will help Christians and Muslims alike, and Jews also. 

The salvation, the security of the Jews are in our hands and not in the hands others. 

There has been more and more talk of creating a safe-haven for Christians in the Middle East, do you think the time has come for this?

Never! Never. Never. It was maybe a temptation in the past centuries, but no more. 

When Israel defined itself as a Jewish state, there were no protests, which is a pity. I am ok with the existence of Israel, but Jewish state? What for? Where am I as a Christian, or as a Druze, as a Palestinan Muslim... What is the difference between a Jewish state and Shari'a? Jewish state means the law of the Jewish religion. 

After the creation of a Jewish state some want to have an Alawite state, a shiite state, a Druze state, a Kurdish state, and so on and so on, what is the future? Nothing. 

We can't live separated! We have a history of living together. I told my people, we will not have our state, we will be in all states and being, in these states, salt and light. This is the future. Christians cannot live alone. We don't have a ghetto spirit. We have to avoid the ghetto spirit. To be put in a corner, or like a resort to save animals or plants... We are the cradle of Christianity, the birthplace of Christianity, we don't need a state.

I wrote a letter to my people and I quoted the letter to Diognetus, which is well known. I told my people, this is the answer to you. Already in the second century this was it.

The Holy Father said, in Evangeli Gaudium, that people think that the problems of today are worse and more difficult than the problems in the first century. It is not true, it is the opposite! For 300 years we had no rights, it was pagan, now we have churches, schools, congregations, we have processions, we have everything. We were able to overcome then, why not today? We have to give hope to our people, because the danger is so big, they are leaving. They are in great fear.

As pastors we have to be very strong and near to our people. We thank the Lord that all patriarchs and bishops are very near to their people.

Christian leaders have always been against the creation of armed militias for the Christian communities, but since the purge of Mosul and other Christian areas, many have defended the legitimacy of an armed response. What is your opinion?

We are not able be armed and we don't like to be armed. 

I said in 2012, in a letter, we were not asked to be armed, in Syria, we are not asking to be armed and we don't like to be armed. Now, it is different to say that in some places we need to have self defense possibility. Not to attack, not militia. Militia is not for Christians. Lebanon used that approach and it was a very, very bad experience. We don't need that, we are different. The Arabic world needs us like this, and not like militias.

We have to convince our people not to take up arms. We have to see other solutions. So I am asking the whole world, why, after years and centuries, are we always solving problems with war? Why not think of something else? In the XXI century the states are only thinking of more and more weapons. The church has to change minds in the states and not to see everything in terms of weapons and militias. This is not the answer, not for the future.

We had 1400 years with Islam without weapons, why not continue without weapons?

But many middle Eastern Christians reject the idea that they are Arabs, and claim to be Assyrians, how do you react to that?

Who is Arab? Where is the pure Arabic blood? Many Muslims were Christians, Assyrians, Greek Catholic, and so on. Many admit this, that they were Christians. Until the XIII century the majority of the Middle East was Christian. How did they become Muslim? Over time.

Being Arabic is something difficult to define. There are different linguistic or geographic groups. It is a mixture of different groups. You can't differentiate. I am Greek Catholic, because of the Greek language, but I am Syrian, just like the Assyrians, because it was the invasion of the Greek language and all the Middle East was speaking Greek in the cities. Even the founders of the Syriac church did not speak Syriac. They are called Syriac Fathers, but they spoke Greek. 

So the difference between Arabs and non-Arabs, Assyrians, Syrians, Chaldeans... The same country has different languages, or similar languages.

What is Assyrian? Assyrian, Syrian, Chaldean, Hebrew, Cananean, Philistines... These people are closer to each other than Europeans, because our languages are closer to each other than European. 

I am happy that we have many rites. Coptic, Syrian, Armenian... We have more pluralism than Europe. I say keep your tradition! Think in Arabic, but think also in Coptic, Greek, Armenian, Syrian, Assyrian, Chaldean... How beautiful!

Before the war we had one million Iraqis and they were singing and praying in our churches in Chaldean, it was so beautiful to hear them! In Maaloula Muslims speak Aramaic, just like the Christians. So this distinction between Arabs and non-Arabs... We are in the Arab World. We are Kurds, Druze, Shiite, Christian…

The "arabity" is a Christian trait. We brought that. Some people say, keep your Christians to keep your "arabity", because if there are no more Christians in the Middle East, only Muslims, they will call themselves Muslims, not Arabs. Even though the Koran is in Arabic, they will say we are Muslim. Arabic is the language, but the nation is Islam. 

So in order to keep a real Arab world, an Arab spring, even, we have to keep Christians there. Not only are we interested in staying, you are interested in us staying. This is a real mission.

That is why I said in my letter to other Christians, it is not the time to be only afraid. There are reasons to be afraid, but it is also time to see where is our mission? I like to tell Christians in Europe, never speak of our presence without speaking about our role and our mission. A presence without a role is nothing, a role without a presence is nothing, therefore we have to think about the Christian presence and the Christian role, and in the very beautiful words of Saint John Paul II, the essence of the human being is to be with and for. I am with the Arab World, but I am for the Arab World, that they may have life, and life in abundance. 

How wonderful is this mission? The essence is to be with, but also for. That is the whole sense of this awareness of the world about Christians, not for themselves, to be present, but to be more, to bring the light of the Gospel, the joy of the Gospel, the values of the Gospel in the world. 

There are many different Christian churches in the Middle East, each with its own Patriarch, liturgy, traditions, language… The feeling is that Christians do not speak as one community and with one voice. Is this a problem, and how can it be overcome?
Because of dogmas, sometimes we have some problems. But for the pastoral, for the social presence, for the works and so on, we are one, especially today. We thank the Lord that we have a wonderful set of Patriarchs today, very united, and we had, since June of this year, many meetings together, all Patriarchs, not just Catholics. We went together to Arbil, to visit the refugees of our brothers, the Iraqis, Yezidis, Christians and Muslims. And we went together to Washington where we had a meeting with Obama, for 40 minutes, all together, and we have many declarations, thank the Lord, with one voice. We are very grateful for that and we want the World to hear our voice. One of the means to realize peace in the Middle East is to hear the voice of the churches. 

We don't have interests, no money, nothing, no militias, we are really, in favour of our countries, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon... We are not servants of a regime, no, no, no! We are strongly together, to bring peace.

I sent a letter to the Holy Father and also to the Bishop's conferences in the world. Giving a little paper and asking them, can we make a paper and give it to the Orthodox, the Anglicans, Lutherans and together having one paper for peace in the Middle East... This is a very beautiful and unique chance for the Church to be peacemaker, and that means real power for the Christians in the Middle East, good for dialog to continue in the Middle East and also in Europe. It is a great chance and I hope it will work. We were together with the Holy Father on the 21st and he said Yes, I hope they will do that, to have one document, one word of the whole world towards peace in the Middle East.

Were you satisfied with the results of the Synod for Middle Eastern bishops?

It was really an act of providence. Just before the crisis in the Middle East we had this wonderful chance to join together, Catholic bishops, but also the Orthodox, who were represented, Muslims and Jews... It was providential of Benedict XVI to have this synod, giving a plan for the Christians to be strong and to remain at home. What we need today we have in this document, to remain in our places, and all problems we need to speak about are in this document. 

We are very, very happy, and it is providence that this happened just before the start of the Arab Spring and the troubles.

Two of the only things the synod fathers requested, permission to ordain married men in diaspora communities and direct authority over your communities, were denied...

In November last year we had a meeting with the Pope for 4 hours. All Patriarchs of the Eastern Churches, and also the Archbishop-majors, and we spoke of these problems. One result is that today it is ok to ordain married men in America, and not only, in Europe, slowly, because we don't have these huge communities, but it is possible also.

This is official?

Yes, yes, official. With some indications to be discrete, because we have to go slowly, but it is ok. 

As for the authority of the Patriarchs outside, it is not so much as we wished. But it is up to us to organize ourselves. If we have more relations with the Latin Church in the countries where we have people, we can reach more with relations than with Canon Law, or with rules. And I think through the war now, and the crisis in the Middle East, I think there is more and more sensitivity towards us, and this is very important. 

Some Eastern Rite Catholics complain about the restrictions and say that they feel like second class catholics. Do you ever feel that way?

No. We had this experience of the synods and I attended many. There are feelings of family and respect. They are happy to hear us. We have more and more communication with them... I don't think that.

We do have better relations with the Cardinals and bishops outside the Curia. The Curia is very legalistic. We have better friendship with the Church outside the circle of the Roman Latin Church. It is different, you know, the Latins in Rome are one thing and the Latins outside Rome are something else. But it is the Church.

Pope Francis was the ordinary for the Greek-Catholic Communities in Argentina, do you expect a better understanding from him?

Well, this meeting in November last year, was a sign of that, and the same with the consistory on the 21st. He is always praying for Syria and for the Middle East.

We can't forget the prayer for Syria in September 7th last year. For 5 hours we were praying and we avoided the attack against Syria. The warships were on the coast with Syria. But there was no aggression, and Syria became a member of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, it was a change.

I think he is very sensitive. In Argentina he was in touch with all communities, Catholic, Orthodox, and also Muslims and Jews. And he grew up in a very plural society and therefore he brought such a beautiful change and a new outlook for the Vatican. 

There is a tradition among Melkites of refusing to be made cardinals...

Yes, it is very rare. One Patriarch became Cardinal in the XIV or XVI century. But in the modern times, only Maximos IV, who was forced to accept as a sign of reverence. But for my predecessor Maximos V and for myself it is not a question. 

This is a Roman thing, not Oriental. We are more than cardinals, not by rank, but by jurisdiction. I am the Pope of my church. 

I like to say, jokingly, that as a Patriarch I am a big archbishop and a little Pope. In many things, unless there are problems, I can rule and serve my church without any reference to Rome. 

Respecting the tradition of the Eastern churches is a mission for us. Because we are the voice of the Orthodox inside all the jurisdiction and meetings of the Catholic Church. We are the presence of the absentee. If something is related to the Orthodox, we are there. We are immediately giving the point of view of the Orthodox and Eastern churches, and that is a big service that we provide.

Fifty years ago [Ecumenical Patriarch] Athenagoras met my predecessor Maximos IV. Maximos said to Athenagoras, “I was speaking always thinking of you”. And Athenegoras answered, “You were speaking on my behalf”. That is why we are so very faithful to our tradition, because it is the tradition of the Church. As John Paul II said in Orientale Lumen, a beautiful document, the Eastern Churches are churches, the same level as the Latin Church. It is not a special Church, it is the Church of God, the same, in the Middle East, in the Eastern as well as in the Western Church.

If somebody asked you if they should go and fight with the Kurds against the Islamic State, what would you respond?

Let us be ourselves and let Syria and Iraq solve the problems by ourselves. We used to be together for many years. Let the little people work together, and as I said, don't divide the Arab world. 

The people who fight are motivated by money and lack of sense of life. I don't think the jihadists coming from Britain, from Germany or Sweden are really willing to be jihadists or to be Muslim, they have no sense of life and they find adventure. 

Therefore I am really not afraid of them, and I would like to invite the European Union and the Western world to work for better Islamic united world, a united Arabic world, and you will have peace in your country. Peace in our countries is peace for Europe. We are one. We cannot forget the Mediterranean... it is our water. We need a good future for peace in our countries. No war! As Paul VI said. And let the little people work together.

You are interfering because you are powerful and you have weapons. You have to change your mind and do something else. Christianity is always a new look, the World today needs a new look. Not only wars and weapons and so on. We have to think of something new.

We had a bad experience of wars for centuries in the Middle East. The Gospel is a new look over the world. We hope that we can bring more light to our world.

“Cristãos serão o sal e a luz do mundo árabe”