"Christians were given three choices, Yazidis only two: 'Convert or die'"

This is a full transcript of my interview with Mirza Dinnayi, advisor for the Kurdish Regional Government and Yazidi activist, who spends his time between Iraq and Germany. The news report, in Portuguese, is here.

Transcrição integral da minha entrevista a Mirza Dinnayi, conselheiro do Governo Regional Curdo e activista pela causa dos yazidi, que passa o seu tempo entre o Iraque e a Alemanha. A reportagem pode ser lida aqui.

Who are the yazidis?

The Yazidis are an ancient religion, about 5000 years old, they are about 500,000 in Iraq and outside of Iraq there are communities in Turkey, Syria, Armenia, Georgia and also a big community in Germany and other countries. Altogether there are about 1 million, half of them are in Iraq. The biggest community is from the Sinjar region – where there are about 320.000 – which was attacked by ISIS.

Because the Yazidi religion is one of the oldest monotheistic religions, believing in one God, although different from Islam and Christianity, they were attacked by Islamic State, which killed more than 3000, kidnapped more than 5000 and raped and enslaved thousands of girls and women. They they say the Yazidis are infidels, in the eyes of the Islamic State, because they are not mentioned in the Koran, which is why they kill them. Now we have more than 400,000 who escaped from their houses from Sinjar and the other areas of the Ninevah plains which are now under the control of ISIS.

What has happened to the communities which had to flee, did they all find refuge with the Kurds?

Yes, we have 400,000 Yazidi refugees in Kurdistan.

What conditions are they living in?

The conditions are very bad, because most of the tents in these camps are very simple tents, which are not prepared for the Winter or the cold. Also the tents which were distributed by UNHCR are not fireproof, they burn in 45 seconds, they are made of nylon so with a simple fire they are gone in 45 seconds.

Every week there are fire accidents in the tents, there are health problems. They are living in a very bad situation, there are no economic perspectives for the people, the people have no resources, no houses, and the local and Iraqi government cannot help them because they are too many. The international organizations are not enough because the situation is very bad and they cannot fill all the needs.

We are talking in general about refugees, but of course many of these people are your friends and family…

Yes, of course. My own town of 35 thousand people, all of them escaped and all of them are living in these tents.

Yazidis being evacuated from Sinjar

Did the fact that they were persecuted bring the Christians and the Yazidis closer together?

The Yazidi and Christian communities are still friends. In this situation they have the same problem with ISIS, with one difference; the Christians were not immediately attacked. During the occupation of Mosul they were given three choices, to convert, flee or pay a tax, the Yazidis were only given two choices: convert or be killed.

Also, ISIS did not take hostages from the Christian population, because they say the Christian religion is mentioned in the Koran, so they can be treated a little bit better than the Yazidis. But both Christians and Yazidis are suffering very much at the hands of ISIS.

What solution do you think is possible for minorities in Iraq? Do you defend the creation of a safe haven, as some defend, or do you believe that these minorities should have their own defence forces?

I think the international community is now responsible for finding a solution for these minorities in Iraq and there are two solutions which should be done, one of them at least. The first is to establish an autonomous region with international support and international peacekeeping forces support in this area of Sinjar and Nineveh plains, or otherwise to help these people leave Islamic countries, because we don't know what will happen in the coming years. We don't know if a new Islamic group will be established. ISIS had roots in Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaeda had roots in Iraq...

Every day there is another radical Islamist group and if there is no solution for this area, to protect these people and to establish peace in this country, it will be impossible to remain.

It is very difficult, most of the people there are helpless and the international community has unfortunately been silent and has not supported these minorities in Iraq.

We know that some Yazidis have chosen to remain in Sinjar mountain and some have taken up arms to defend themselves. Why have they decided to remain in this mountain, where they are more exposed to the Islamic State?*

In the mountain we have some religious heritage, some Yazidi temples. We have some fighters, because they are sure that nobody will help them, the situation of the IDPs in Kurdistan is already very bad so they decided to stay.

We have about 8000 people, some of them are fighters. We have 1250 families, or more, there. They decided to stay because they have no perspectives in Kurdistan or outside. They think it is better to die there than to be refugees in a camp, in a tent, without perspectives, without anything.

Every Yazidi is now waiting to know what the international community ca do for them. Will they support us politically? But until now it has not happened, unfortunately.

Do you believe the Islamic State can be defeated, and how?

What has been done against the Islamic State until now has been very week. We cannot win the war against the Islamic State with only airstrikes. We need forces on the ground, not only from the international community, we need them also from the Sunni world, they should fight ISIS, they should stand against the Islamic State because it was established with a background of Islamic Religion. Now it is the responsibility of the Islamic world, especially the Sunnis, to define themselves, they work against ISIS and the fundamentalist Islam. This is their responsibility, to fight, not only through air raids, but on the ground. We need forces on the ground, otherwise it is not possible to fight ISIS.

ISIS was able to flourish because of widespread discontent among the Sunni population. Do you foresee a future in which Sunnis and Shia can live in peace in Iraq?

I am pessimistic. I don't think that the Sunni and Shia will be together in a closed centralized country. I think the best solution is for them to establish a federal system, governed by moderate people, not radicals, who can serve their population and represent them.

The problem now in Iraq is that most of the Sunni politicians are not representing their communities, the ones in Baghdad, most of them are corrupt, they are working in the Government for their own profits, for their own benefits, and therefore they cannot represent their community.

The people don't know who represents the Sunni community in Iraq, we don't know. Is it ISIS? A radical group? The Ba’ath party remnants? Or the politicians sitting in parliament? We don't know.

Most of the Sunni regions are outside of the control of the Iraqi government, outside of the control of Sunni politicians, and therefore they cannot represent their communities. They should choose Sunni politicians who are not criminals, who are not ISIS supporters, who are not Al-Qaeda supporters, who can serve their citizens and serve the country. This is the problem we have now in Iraq.

Yazidis no monte Sinjar, cercados pelo Estado Islâmico

They have also taken in thousands of refugees, do the minorities feel gratitude towards the Kurds? How are relations between them?

The Kurdish government are doing what they can to support these IDPs and refugees. I think the situation now is that there is no conflict between the Yazidis, or the Christians, and the Kurds.

You can imagine if you have a country with a population of 5 million people and you send them two million refugees, it is a catastrophe. They cannot manage the problem. We know this. But as I said the best solution for these minorities, the Yazidis, the Christians and the Shabak is to establish a type of autonomous area for them. This solution should be implemented with the cooperation of the Iraqi government. 

Kurds are, mostly, Sunni. Is there also danger of radical Islam taking hold among the Kurds?

Yes, of course. We, the members of the minorities are afraid of radical people in Kurdistan. We are happy that the Government is secular, but in the community there are radicals and the Government should speak out against them.

It may be a small number, but over the last 20 years there was a type of islamization of the street, and this led to big problems, so that whereas the Kurdish people in the past were not very religious, there are now some religious people in the community.

There are some Kurds from the KRG who joined ISIS, a small amount, I don't know the number, maybe 300 or 500 fighters, more or less. There is fundamentalism in Kurdistan and we are trying to fight it, to become a liberal community in Kurdistan. We hope for this and we are working towards it, all of us.

What is your opinion on Turkey in the midst of all this?

The negative role of Turkey in support of the Islamic State is well known. Everybody knows that at the beginning Turkey played a very negative role in support of the Islamic groups, especially Jhabat al-Nusra, and other Islamic groups against Bashar al-Assad.

So now we have this problem: Turkey is under a big question mark, will it cooperate with the international community, first to stop the resources of ISIS and to stay in a positive situation? Until now its role has not been positive. Turkey cannot say "I will be independent about the issue of ISIS", because Turkey played a negative role and now they should change their policies and be positive, rather than negative.

Yazidi refugees in Erbil

All this instability has its roots in the Syrian civil war. Is there an end in sight?

They should find an outcome for the situation in Syria, peace should be established between all groups, with all opposition groups and non-opposition groups, otherwise we will have a massacre against the Alawites, for example.

All the Syrian players should work together, without Assad in power, but the Alawites should participate in planning the new country in a democratic way.

*Since this interview was conducted, the siege of Sinjar has been broken by Kurdish forces.

"Most Christians accept Hezbollah"

Full transcript of my interview with his grace Archbishop Issam John Darwish, of the Melkite Archdiocese of Furzol, Zahle and the Bekaa. News report (in Portuguese) here.

Transcrição completa, no inglês original, da minha entrevista com o Arcebispo Issam John Darwish, da arquidiocese melquita de Furzol, Zahle e do Bekaa. A notícia respectiva está aqui.

You are here to speak on Religious Freedom in Lebanon, what is the situation in your country like?

First, let me thank you for welcoming me to this station, and thanks to the Church in Need for inviting me to Portugal to speak about religious freedom.

In the Arab world there are some difficulties in Religious Freedom. But I will start with Lebanon. There we don't have any problems, because we are free to worship in any religion. We have 18 sects and anyone is free to worship. The political power in Lebanon is divided between the 18 communities.

In Syria and in Iraq the constitution also permits freedom of religion, but actually, if you have a mixed marriage between a Christian and a Muslim, they must register it under Islam.

In other Arabic countries it is very hard to worship as you like. In the Gulf they have started to build churches, but for example in Saudi Arabia we are not permitted to identify as Christians.

The Arab spring did not advance anything in the Arab world, neither democracy nor religious freedom. But we hope, in the future, after the events in Syria and in Iraq, that we can have a transparent Islam, share our lives and be free to worship as we like.

At the moment the situation seems better in Egypt, though...

Yes. There is more peace now.

Last month I was in Egypt. I was invited by the minister of Tourism, to open the Holy Family Road. Jesus, Mary and Joseph went to Egypt, to 25 places, and the tourism minister chose seven places with the Orthodox Patriarchate of the Copts for tourism sites. Representatives of all the churches were there for the inauguration.

With the new president, and the new regime, it is more peaceful. They respect all religions and we hope that will continue in Egypt.

Lebanon is, as you were saying, a special case. What is the situation of relationships among different Christians? It seems that they are divided.

No, the Christians are not divided politically.

There are two parties, one which sides with the Sunnis and one with the Shiites. But it is not a religious divide, it is a political divide. There is a dialogue between the Christian communities and we live together as brother and sister.

In my town we celebrate the liturgy and the mass together, we celebrate feasts together, and in Zahle, where I am a bishop, the bishops meet every month and decide things together. There are no problems within Christian communities.

But as you said, there are two parties, one allied with the Shiites, one with the Sunnis. Does that weaken the voice of the Christians?

I don't think so because the mentality of the Christians is more democratic. The diversity in the Christian community is for the benefit of the country. That is why we try to avoid the war, we try to be part of the society and we like to be together. I am the head of the Christian-Muslim dialogue in Lebanon. I speak in the name of all the Catholics in Lebanon, we have good relations with the Sunnis and the Shias, we live together, we are together for each other's feasts, and we try to help those Muslims raise their voices against the jihadists, the fundamentalists, that we see in Iraq and Syria.

Bekaa Valley

Most of the threats to Christians seem to be coming from radical Sunni factions. Could the future of Christianity in the Middle East be tied up to Shia Islam?

I think we should be close to both, to Sunnis and Shiites. We are a bridge between communities and would like to play this role to bring them together.

Iran has a big influence in the region. What is the situation like in Iran at the moment?

I don't have the impression that Iran is radical. They are very open. I know a few Iranians, who have come to Lebanon, and I know the Shiites, they are very open now and more open to the Christian people.

Iran supports Hezbollah, largely through Syria. If the regime in Syria were to fall, how would that affect the balance of power in Lebanon?

It will be a big problem for the Christians in Lebanon and in Syria. We know that the Shiites are influenced by Iran and the Sunnis are influenced by Saudi Arabia. I think when the problems started in Egypt we started to have a problem in Lebanon and Syria. That is why last month I told a few ministers in Egypt to use their influence over the Sunnis in Lebanon, because I know that the Egyptian way is more moderate than the Wahhabis from Saudi Arabia.

How has Lebanon managed to avoid being drawn into the conflict until now?

From the beginning of the war I said in one of my speeches in Lebanon: “Be careful, the people in Lebanon will be influenced by the war in Syria.” And we are now... the jihadists, the Daash [Islamic State], the Al-Nusra Front, are now on the border of Lebanon. They are not far from my town, Zahle, they are in the mountains. And every day there is a fight between the Lebanese army and the Jihadists.

Also, Hezbollah defend, with the army, the border of Lebanon. But the Government has been very sensible, the Sunnis, the Shiites and the government, work together to avoid the big problem in Lebanon. I think that now the situation will improve, after the events of Tripoli, last week, where the Lebanese army removed the jihadists from the city and Northern Lebanon.

Lebanese Christians were the only ones who, during conflicts, organized themselves into armed militias. What lessons does that hold for the current situations of Christians persecuted in the Middle East?

I don't think we should have militias. We learned from the past that this is not the way for peace. The way for peace is only through dialogue between the communities. Weapons and arms are not helping to get peace. That is why all Lebanese parties are now against militias in Lebanon.

Bishops have been almost unanimous in saying that they do not want a safe-haven or independent country for Christians in the Middle East. In your opinion, however, should other communities like the Kurds have their own state?

Apparently yes, there is a country for the Kurds, but as Christians we don't like to have a country for our people. We like to be with everybody, because we are the salt of the society and we like to be friends with everybody.

Hezbollah soldiers in Lebanon

You were born in Syria… how has the civil war there affected you?

I still have family in Damascus. I am worried about the situation, but apparently Damascus and the big cities are now safer than three years ago, when the war started in Syria.

I call for the heads of state in Europe to stop sending arms to Syria and Iraq, to understand the problems better, to understand our way of democracy. We cannot have the European democracy. The Arabic world should start to think how they can have their own democracy, maybe in the near future we will find this way.

You say that European democracy does not work in the Arab world, but Lebanon has a functional democracy...

Half of the population of Lebanon is Christian, and the Christians are more adequate for Democracy and they like to have democracy. Even the Lebanese Muslims are apt to have democracy, because Lebanon is a unique state, the only state in the Arab world with a Christian president.

In Lebanon Hezbollah still have their own army and have resisted attempts to demiliterize. How do the Christians see the fact that there is this party in Lebanon with its own army?

Most of the Christians accept now presence of Hezbollah, because they have defended the Christian villages in Syria, like Maaloula. Maaloula was liberated by Hezbollah and other Christian villages in Syria also. That is why we now see Hezbollah as resistance against Israel and the jihadists in Syria, and especially against Daesh.

You said that it would be bad for the Christians if the regime fell in Syria. But do you see a future for Bashar al-Assad in power?

I would not like to see Daesh take the position of Assad. Assad, even with his faults, in Syria, is better than Daesh, Al-Nusra and other jihadists. At least we know that in his regime Christians are free to worship, to build churches, and the Government gave some land to help build their own monasteries and churches. I think that if we look between Syria and other Arabic countries, it is easier to live in Syria than other Arabic countries, except, of course, Lebanon.