“We hope the Pope puts his diplomatic machine to work 100%”

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Metin Rhawi, from Suroyo TV and the European Syriac Union, regarding the importance of Pope Francis’ visit to Iraq. Excerpts of this interview were used here and here.

How important is this visit for the Christians in Iraq?

The Christians in Iraq, we have good knowledge about what they are thinking, and regarding this visit many people find it important, of course, because they belong to the Catholic Church, they are Chaldeans or Syriac Catholics, and that gives them a possibility to see their supreme leader in faith. But at the same time there are also clear voices from the same community who have reservations. 

We know the situation of our people, the Christians in Iraq. We are out in the diaspora, we have lost everything, it is about existing or not in their homeland. Since Daesh no rights have been acknowledged. We are happy that they are talking a bit more about the Yazidis now, and also remembering that there were Christians who suffered very much, and so they are also mentioned, but we have lost properties, our land, our cities, our villages, our rights and there has also been a very bad influence in the civil society, with people thinking that they do not actually need the Christians, they are not part of the system, part of the culture, and also some voices from Muslim leaders asking why the Pope should come to Iraque, since he is an infidel. 

Of course, Al-Khadimi and Barham Salih have expressed their gratitude and they are happy he is coming, they are doing their best and trying to show a good face, but both sides exist, in general, among the society, and also among the Christians. Some are very happy, but others are raising issues. We have been victims of genocide for over 100 years. The last big genocide was in 1915, prior to that, 1895 and then Daesh 2014. Nobody demanded acknowledgement or liability for what happened then and now. Rights do not exist. Nobody talks about the possibility of educating our children in our language, the right to be Christian and if we want to produce and consume alcohol it should not be a problem, but instead we see bombing of the stores that sell alcohol in Baghdad. So there are many rights that have been left out and it seems to those people that the Pope should ask about this situation before coming here and making sure that the rights should be acknowledged and given to the Christians, the Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs, because it gives some kind of legitimacy to the Baghdad regime, as if they had been successful in dealing with this sort of thing. But obviously the Pope will be having diplomatic discussions with them, I believe. 

But of course we know the Vatican has always had a very pragmatic approach to diplomacy, and have in fact been able to achieve successes and rights precisely through dialogue with regimes that are not always friendly, such as China.

Obviously, the Pope’s administration is very powerful and he is in a position that he can, indirectly, influence some foreign ministries. Obviously, the countries that are Catholic, and proud of it, listen to the Pope when he has something to say, we know that! That is why we, as the European Syriac Union have not expressed reservations about this visit. We think it is good, it is very important that he visit our homeland, because some of our people belong to his church, they are faithful to his church, and to him, and he should be asking about their rights. We hope that he will do that, we understand also that he is not a leader of a country who has an army to invade, or to impose sanctions, but we know that he has the capacity, when he wants to, to draw a line in the sand that should not be crossed. We hope that is his intention, because we see a lot of concern from the Pope and the cardinals and bishops around him have expressed this, that Christianity should not vanish from the Middle East, from Iraq. They are trying to do their best, but their strongest weapon is prayer... But we know that he has diplomacy and we believe that he will use it, of course. 

I am trying to show you the full picture. There are people on the ground with both opinions. I know that in Baghdedi and Bartella for three months a choir has been practicing singing hymns in Italian and in Latin, as well as in Arabic and Syriac, to show that they are proud to be Assyrian/Syriac/Chaldean, they have their own language, but they belong to Iraq at the moment, they are Iraqi and they are also Catholics. 

Disunity has always been a problem for Christians in the Middle East. Following the persecution by the Islamic State, has the situation improved?

If you look internally, when it comes to Christianity, the persecution woke us up from this strange dream that we are different empires living on the ground. In fact we are hospitalised on the ground, we are close to dying on the ground, but still the church leaders are not trying to find us a common line on the ground for Iraq. The Patriarchs and leaders of the different churches should cooperate much more. They are all Christian, but they have the same roots, they are the same people, there is no doubt that they are the same community, but they are divided in different "isms", when it comes to faith some are Catholics, some are Orthodox. They should have done much more.

Watching the political leaders, I can see that they are trying, but the ones who have more power, with seats in Parliament, consider that they are big enough to decline any interest that does not benefit them directly, they are not thinking as a community, but rather as parties. We are still divided, unfortunately, in that sense. It is tough to say that, it hurts, but it is the reality.

There are many reasons for the Pope not to visit at the moment. A recent bombing in Baghdad, the pandemic… The Pope has personally insisted on going. In your opinion is he being foolish, brave, or both?

We have seen in the news that even the previous Pope has expressed his fear and called upon Pope Francis to be careful and maybe not visit because of the security, and the Pandemic. I think that the Pope is not stupid, he is not foolish. He is doing a very good thing to show that he is with his people and that he has interests in Iraq because of the people and because the societies in the Middle East are based on faith and religion and he is a leader that mush show that he is close to his people. And he is doing that and we should really give him credit for that.

We hope he will get home safe and secure, and I think that will be arranged, I am not worried that something might happen to him. His faithful love him, and they won't get too close because of Covid. I think all this will be respected, and he knows how much this means to his people, because even if some say he should not visit before rights are guaranteed, there is a part of the community that is really insisting, and rightly so, that he is showing courage and showing that he is with them, that he knows that they exist there and that nobody should be able to force them out. So much so that he is even willing to visit them himself. It is an act of being with his people, and that is good, and we should give him credit. 

But of course, above all, we really hope he will run his diplomacy machine to work 100%, because it is a very critical situation, in Iraq and in the Middle East in general. 

In Iraq there are about 300 thousand Christians from different churches, of the Chaldean/Assyrian/Syriac people today. So, from being about 4 million 20 years ago, maybe more, to 1.8 million in 2003, or 1.5, according to the figures, now people say 200 thousand, others say 300 thousand, so we can see that it is like 10% left. We are not far away, in time, it could be in our lifetimes... This is frightening, and we need to be awake and I think the Pope is acting on that. 

"The Syriac people in Syria are not happy with the regime"

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Johan Cosar, a Swiss born syriac Christian who fought against the Islamic State. English is not Johan's first language, some of the answers have been edited for clarity. The published news story, in Portuguese, can be read here.

Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista com Johan Cosar, um cristão siríaco, nascido na Suíça, que combateu o Estado Islâmico. O inglês não é a primeira língua de Johan, por isso algumas das respostas foram ligeiramente editadas, por uma questão de clareza. A reportagem, em português, pode ser lida aqui.

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You did your military service in Switzerland? 

Yes, like any other Swiss.

And did you enjoy it?

Actually, the first days I wasn't that happy. But as the weeks went by I enjoyed it more. I took it like a new education, a new challenge, and at the end one of my instructors, who had really motivated me, I think he saw the leadership I had in me, and he captured it and cultivated it. So that is why in the end I decided to continue and I signed a five year contract as a sergeant. 

What was your specialty? 

Mountain infantry and local combat, small special forces, if you'd like. 

Did it ever cross your mind that you might ever need to use that training in the Middle East?

No, not at all. I was so far from the Middle East, even if I do have roots in the Middle East there was no reason to think about it. So, in 2011 I finished my military duty, in November, and around that time the first demonstrations began in Syria. You could see that something was going to happen. 

Your roots are in Turkey?

My father was born in Syria, but my mother is from South East Turkey, but very close to each other, separated by only a small border line. 

Was the Syriac identity and culture present in your education? Did you speak Syriac at home?

Yes, of course. 

I was talking about this with some friends just a few days ago. I had the great opportunity to grow up in two big cultures. One, the Middle East culture, especially the Syriac/Assyrian culture, where all the civilizations came from. 

And, of course, at home – especially my father – was pressuring us to not forget our own roots, and not to be ashamed of them, because you can be good for no other culture if you deny your own. So, at home, still today, we speak Syriac, and I have one brother and one sister, and many cousins, and we don't regret or deny our culture. The whole family is connected this way.

But at the same time I had a Swiss education in Switzerland, we had a good education and the great opportunity to have a good education. So I grew up with two cultures and this made me very happy and very cultured. 

What is that made you first go to Syria?

My father had been involved in fighting for the rights of our people for a long time. And by going there and back he kept mentioning what was going on there, and pressing me to go and see what was happening. 

I finally decided to go in 2011, to report in a free-lance way, because everybody was talking about Syria from outside Syria, and that is a big mistake, talking about something that you can't see, and that you are not involved in, just from seeing and listening from outside, is a big mistake. Especially since my people were there. I had people who could finally achieve something, after 2000 years. I thought "let's try this trip, go in, and achieve something good for my people too". 

So that is why I decided to leave Switzerland, for around six months, reporting what was happening in Syria from inside. I made some reports for friends in radio and newspapers. But things didn't go like I'd planned. 

What was your first idea when you began to see the first signs of the Arab Spring?

Hope, of course. And helping the people. 

I have had much contact with Christians from Syria, mostly from Damascus, Aleppo, and so on, and they tend to be very much pro-regime, or at least against the rebels. But that is not the universal reality. The Christians from Qamishli maybe saw this with hope that they could get more rights?

I think that even the Syriac Christians in Damascus, Homs and Aleppo, right now, think like we do, but they can't express their own opinions, for one reason, because around Aleppo, Homs and Damascus there is only the regime, no other forces and no other solution. In Northeast Syria there was the Syrian regime, there was ISIS, there were jihadists and us. So the people could choose. 

Are you including the Free Syrian Army as jihadists?

At the beginning, no. At the beginning I was one of those who appreciated what they were doing. But after we started seeing them chant Allahu Akhbar after every attack, I realised this was going to change and become something else. 

The Syriac people in Syria are not happy with the regime. They are controlled. It's a fake protection, protection under the name of being controlled. For our people, at the moment, if you have to choose between ISIS and the regime, or between the revolutionaries of this time and the regime, of course they are going to choose the regime, because the others have nothing to offer them, they are chopping off heads, forcing people to leave their homes, not accepting their culture or their religion... It's an easy decision. 

But if the regime could give us – which isn't going to happen – the chance to go there and to present ourselves and give the people a choice...

This is the difference between North-eastern Syria and other places. I am sure, absolutely sure, that the Christians do not see the Assad regime as their saviour or protector anymore, because they saw what happened. Where was the regime in Al-Qaritain? In Qunaitra? In all the places where ISIS came in, made mass destruction and left? Where was the regime in the Khabour area? In Hassekah? 

I think that in 8 years of war the people opened their eyes, they are not blind anymore.

So you were in Syria when something happened to your father…

[Johan’s father was kidnapped by regime agents, who then told the family that he had died in custody, although they never provided the family with a body]

I was in Syria when my father was kidnapped. We met each other the day before. It was not the main reason for me to go to Syria or to stay in Syria. Of course, the love I had for my father, and how much we were attached to each other, is unbelievable, because we were like friends, even in this movement. 

But that was not the main reason he and I were there. It's a cause, a purpose, that is what brought us there and made me stay there. 

Do you believe he is still alive? 

I do. It is still a matter of 50/50. As long as we don't have a sure answer we keep up the hope. I can't say if he is dead or alive, so let's keep it like this.

What year was he kidnapped? 

August 12th, 2013.

So by that time you were already in Syria full time?

Yes.

And you were already involved with the military aspect?

Not that much... I started to be involved one month later, with training. So it was the very beginning of everything at that time. 

So in 2013 you began training, is that when the Syriac Military Council began to form?

The SMC officialised in January 2013, but in practical terms, in starting to form and organise itself, it started in August and September.

When you began with the training, were you aware you were breaking Swiss law?

At the beginning I didn't even think about it. I saw the state of emergency we were in and I didn't think about it. When you see the jihadists coming, very close to you, when you see people are being kidnapped, abducted, and killed, from the groups very close to you, you don't think about laws. 

What was the state of the people you were training? Did any of them have any military experience, or were they beginning from zero?

I had people who were veterans from the Assad regime, but it was like training somebody from zero. Because the military education I had was very different from theirs. So you can say that all the people I trained was from zero, because giving them a Western training is like teaching them a new language. 

When does the Syriac Military Council begin to be involved in actual conflict?

Our first session, about 1 month, was in October 2013. 

Already allied with the Kurds?

Yes. 

Were the YPG better prepared?

YPG were, of course, better prepared. They are old fighters. But we reached their level of preparation very well. 

Did they respect the Syriac fighters?

Of course, very much. They had very high respect for us. The Syriac Military Council is still very well respected by the YPG and other military forces because at that time that I was there fighting with them they could see how ready we are for everything, so there is great respect of the Kurds for the Syriacs. It is not only about the military forces, there is a lot of respect about what we are. 

Because traditionally, over the past 100 years, the Syriac and the Assyrian people have not been a fighting people. Was it difficult to convince people to take up weapons?

100 years ago we were not, but 2000 years ago we were. We tried to take back that feeling. 

It wasn't that hard. The most difficult thing was to convince them that the we were in the wrong status to begin with. That was the main difficulty, to change the minds of the people, not just making them fight, but to fight for what? 

You can bring people during a war and let them fight, that is easy, but if they don't know what they are fighting for, that is your main problem. One day you will stop fighting ISIS, and then? You have about 1000 people, with military training... If they don't have any goals they can turn against you, they become a threat, but if they are educated, if they have a goal, if they are really focused on a purpose, on a way, it becomes much easier. But if you have 1000 people who are just fighting, they become like a gang after that. 

Which we see in several places in the world. So what is that goal?

At the beginning it was just to have our own rights, to be recognised as a people, with our culture, our religion, our language, like any other people, and like indigenous people of Syria, not just a minority, because we are not a minority in Syria. There are more than three million Christians in Syria, more than Alawites, more than Kurds. So we are not a minority in Syria, we are not a minority in the Middle East, we are indigenous. This is our place. 

The main goal was that. We never wanted to create a new nation, anything like a Kurdistan, or for us a Mesopotamia... Just to be recognised as a people in the place where we were, that was our main goal. 

So when do you change from training officer and actually go and fight on the front lines?

Very fast. After starting training in October, I was part of assault groups in December.

And here you were facing ISIS?

No, at that time we were facing Al-Nusra. After that came ISIS.

When you are on the ground fighting, is there a difference between fighting ISIS or al-Nusra?

Of course. Fighting al-Nusra was... I won't say easier, because they are very fanatical, full of drugs and therefore harder to take down, because it was like fighting a non-person, no fear, no hunger, no cold in the winter... Because they were full of drugs. And they attacked in mass, 50, 60 or 70 people. 

ISIS is different. It is an ideological movement, supported by many nations, so more professional. And you saw what they did, so it was more difficult to fight them. Especially because of the equipment they had, it wasn't normal... The technological equipment they had, the tunnel systems, the IED systems, things you can't even imagine, and these are things that came from big nations, and one of them is Turkey. 

If you were captured by Al-Nusra, what would they do to you? 

Cut off my head. 

So in that sense no difference between ISIS and al-Nusra...

No difference, it was the same. 

Obviously you were in dangerous situations all the time. Were you ever in situations where you thought, "that's it for me?"

There was one where we were going to patrol a village, myself and three YPG fighters. It was a recon group, so we were going to the village, see what was going on there and return to the assault groups and prepare the assault. 

The four of us went, and according to the report, the village was empty, no al-Nusra. When we were there of course we were walking next to each other, and unfortunately the village was, in fact, full of al-Nusra.

This was 2013, we didn't have any night vision goggles, radios, operation rooms. We just had one radio for each group to connect to the others. So when we were walking another patrol from al-Nusra was walking towards us, but it was so dark, and so foggy, that we didn't see each other. 

I was the one on the far-right. I touched the shoulder of the one on the right of the other group. Our shoulders touched and I jumped. We understood that we were from opposing groups...

Because of the good training I had I always held my weapon in front of me, not on my shoulder, and when I realised that they were al-Nusra I jumped one step back and one to the left, and I started shooting.

I heard the guy on my left get hit by a bullet. 

Then we tried to escape, but we were in this village, and we were about 500 meters in the desert, with no orientation, in the darkness and in the fog, alone. I lost my other three colleagues. One was martyred, but the problem is that all the village suddenly realised that something had happened there, and they were all al-Nusra, and they started to search for us. I don't know how I escaped. I walked in the desert, I didn't even know what direction I was walking in, because of all the confusion and the fog, but fortunately we managed to go in the right direction, and we all survived, except the one who was killed at the beginning. 

That was one time when I really thought, OK, I'm done...

You were there and fought against ISIS. To see the declaration of their territorial defeat, what did that feel like? 

Territorially it's done, but it's not over. I'm not celebrating. It's a good thing to give hope to the people, territorially, so they can start a new life, a new education, a new future with better prospects, but the war is not over. 

Of course there is a risk of sleeper cells and more terrorist activity, but when you say the war is not over, are you also thinking about Turkey and the regime?

I think so, yes. 

The war is not over because until now it was a war of militias, now the big war will start, between the Sunni and Shia factions. 

You were there for a long time. Do you believe the Federation and this democratic project will be able to survive in the long run?

I think so, yes. I believe it will. Because it is the only way to make sure minorities survive. The policy is based on minorities, not on the idea of one family, one nation. With the one family, one nation policy you can see what happened. Giving hope to the minorities is creating a new life for people, it is making Sunnis and Shia live together, Muslims and Christians live together, Jews and Muslims living together. I think that it is a big example for democracy and a new life in harmony together. It has to survive, if not the Middle East will be a disaster for another thousand years. We won't come out of this war for another thousand years.

When did you decide to return to Switzerland, and why?

My first trip back to Switzerland, after many years in Syria was in 2015. Why? Because I had to face this trial. 

By then you had already been warned that you were in trouble back home...

I had the possibility to come back, because before it was not possible for me to leave. I left illegaly, I had a lot of difficulty to leave the KRG [Iraqi Kurdistan], because I had entered from Turkey. I used fake papers to enter the KRG, then I used my Swiss Passport, then I didn't have a stamp to leave, so it was very difficult.

But when you were in Syria did anyone from Switzerland contact you...

No. I heard from the newspapers.

So obviously they were keeping an eye on you...

Of course, yes. More than one. 

You came back, and what did the Swiss authorities say?

I was stopped in Switzerland, and of course they interrogated me, and they told me they had to open a military case against me, because I broke this and that rule. But nothing bad, so I was not being treated as a criminal. At many of the places I was going around, the police and so on, they were looking at me as a good guy, who did a good thing.

At the trial that we had at the end of February they honoured my action, even though they gave me a punishment. We appealed, and so the trial will continue.

So it was just a fine?

Yes, around 500 dollars. But we appealed on grounds of principle. 

Have there been Swiss who went to fight with ISIS who came back as well?

Yes, but they were tried for small things.

Are they back in Switzerland?

Yes.

What is it like, thinking that one day you could be walking in Zurich and bump into a guy who had been fighting for ISIS?

It's a big mess for Switzerland. A big mess.

I keep myself protected. I know how to move, when I go anywhere, I know how to watch myself, but the other people... It's a problem.

Your face must have been everywhere now because of this trial. Does it worry you in terms of safety, reprisals?

No. Myself, personally, no. I am not worried, I am not scared, but I take precautions. Like everyone in Europe must, because you don't know when some sleeper cell in ISIS will shoot, cut or bomb... 

You know ISIS better than pretty much anybody else in Switzerland. Have you had any requests for cooperation? To prevent terrorist attacks?

No. I was asked to go to some conferences, but until now I have kept myself far away from these things. I want to finish my trial in a clean way and then we'll see. 

In 2015 you came back, and since then you haven't returned to Syria?

I have been to Iraq.

But were you involved in any fighting in Iraq?

No, no fighting.

So you continue to be very active in the Syriac cause...

All the time. I can't leave what I started. 

You were in Syria for about three years fighting. Did you leave your job here in Switzerland?

No, I was a professional soldier. I went as soon as I finished my contract with the army. 

So now you need to start a new life?

Being involved in the organisation we have now in Iraq is my full-time occupation.

Are you married?

Thank God, no. 

Are you more hopeful for the future of your people now? 

Yes, of course. More hopeful and with brighter prospects for the future. The people we were involved with gained strength from seeing ISIS being defeated territorially. For the Syrian people that is a huge victory. 

You fought side by side with the YPG. And you said they respected the Syriacs. Now that ISIS is defeated, YPG is still the big player in the region. Do you trust them?

I trust them, like they trust me. But it is politics. I trust the people who represent the Kurds, and their idea. I trust their idea, and I respect the idea. I don't follow the people. If they keep to their idea and follow it, to do something for all the peoples there, I will trust them. If they are going to change their idea they will be betraying themselves, more than me. 

Were you ever frustrated or surprised that there were more Syriacs like you from Europe going to fight with your people?

No. I was happier to see the Syriacs inside Syria fight. The main problem was to convince them to change their mentality, not to bring them to war. So I was really happy to see all the influence we had and the young people joining the SMC, because they trusted what we were doing. We were not obsessed with bringing people from outside. If you come by yourself you are welcome, but we were pushing for the local fighters, because those are the people who are going to stay. 

It's a little bit like the volunteers of the YPG. They came in their thousands. How many are still in Syria? They left. If we had a thousand Syriac youths and then leaving, it doesn't make sense. We were looking for a long-term, strategical commitment. 

Christians “cautiously joyful” with liberation of Nineveh Plains

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my conversation with Swedish Assyrian journalist and activist Nuri Kino about the liberation of Qaraqosh and other Christian towns and villages in the Mossul region. Read the news story, in Portuguese, here.

Transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista ao jornalista e activista sueco/assírio sobre a libertação de Qaraqosh e de outras vilas e aldeias cristãs na região de Mossul. A reportagem está aqui.

We have had conflicting reports about the situation in Qaraqosh. From your information, what is the situation on the ground?

The news regarding the Christians is that Bartella, a town of about 30 thousand inhabitants prior to ISIS, has been fully liberated. We have received videos and pictures of the church bells ringing. That is of course very satisfying.

When it comes to Qaraqosh we received pictures of the main hospital being liberated, the town hall buildings and also the Iraqi Army headquarters. But it is very hard to know if it is totally liberated or not. We are also receiving conflicting information about that.

I just spoke to two of the priests from Qaraqosh and they also have no full information, but the Iraqi army and some of the Christian forces are supposed to be inside Qaraqosh.

Two days ago we received information that it had been liberated. Then information came a couple of hours later saying that there were about 20 ISIS suicide bombers and snipers left in Qaraqosh and they were shooting people from the rooftops. Also, one of the biggest problems is the mines. There are a lot of mines around the city, both anti-personnel mines and street mines.

But we believe that Qaraqosh will be liberated today. [Saturday 21^st October]

How does that make you and other Christians feel?

Qaraqosh is about 70% Syriac Catholic and 30% Syriac Orthodox and I am Syriac Orthodox. For us there is no difference whether it is in southeast Turkey, where I was born, or in Syria or Iraq, or in Iran or in Lebanon. We are all the same nation, the same ethnicity, the same people with different names: Assyrian, Syriac, Chaldean...

Of course, after more than two years of ISIS in our home towns, we are very happy to see it, though we are also careful and cautious, because we never know how things will turn.

Look at what happened in Kirkuk yesterday... All of a sudden sleeping terrorist cells in Kirkuk started to hit the street, more than 20 suicide bombers. They also kidnapped some people and threatened to kill them, and battles are ongoing in Kirkuk, which is also a bit Iraqi city.

So I would say that we are cautiously joyful.

Also, after the liberation there is a lot of work to be done for our people to return to the Nineveh plane, where Bartella and Qaraqosh are. The Swedish MEP Lars Adaktusson is presenting a new resolution in the European Parliament about self-administration in the Nineveh Plane and two other provinces in Northern Iraq, so that these people can feel that they get their dignity back and rule their own areas, or at least get some power in the administrations, so that the inhabitants can feel confident to come back.

Also it is about dignity, so as to get their dignity back. The same thing is going on in Washington DC, there are political movements and political solutions – hopefully – so that people can move back.

In Iraq, before the fall of Saddam, approximately 1.3 million Christians lived there. After the fall of Mossul, we don't know, but we estimate that there are more not more than 250 thousand left.

So more than one million have already left the country, and people are emigrating every day, because they lost hope in the world leaders to protect them. But we do have some hope in what is happening these days, in the liberation of Nineveh and Mossul, and we also have hope in the political solutions that will be on the table over the coming weeks.

Are Christians afraid to be caught in between Baghdad and the Kurds, over who actually controls this region...

That has been going on since the fall of Saddam, it’s nothing new. It’s not a question of being afraid, we know it’s a fact, it’s been a fact for a decade now. So that is why we are asking for self-administration, so as not to be caught in the middle.

Will Bagdad and Kurdistan accept that idea?

Well we hope on the European Union and on Washington and the UN.

A little ringtone for your Saturday ... the church bells ringing in Bartella outside Mosul just liberated from #ISIS pic.twitter.com/qncchINW6Y

— Mindy Belz (@mcbelz) October 22, 2016

Kidnapped Christians in Syria: "It keeps repeating itself, since 1915"

Nuri Kino with Syriac bishops in Sweden

Full transcript of Nuri Kino's explanation about the situation in Syria, where 250 Christians have been kidnapped. News report, in Portuguese, here.

What information do you have about the kidnappings in Al-Quarayatayn?

Isis went in to the city and about 1500 people managed to flee. Most of them came to the churches of Homs. We spoke several times to the churches and the Syriac Orthodox Bishop managed to make a list of missing people. He and volunteers, clergymen and civil volunteers registered everyone that fled and asked them if they had any missing neighbours, friends or family members. Then they went through again and after several interviews with those who registered they completed a list of 250 missing people.

These 250 are all Christians?

They are all Syriac Orthodox or Syriac Catholic.

Could there also be people from other minorities who have also been kidnapped?

That we do not know, because we only spoke with the churches.

But was the city of  Al-Quarayatayn majority Christian?

Nearly only Christians.

There has been no information on the part of the kidnappers, no demands...

No. The only thing we know is that their cell phones have been switched off. So when relatives, family members and the churches try to reach them there is no answer.

This is not the first time there has been a mass abduction. The most recent one was near Hassakeh...

From the Khabour area there are still 222 people abudcted.

Do you know if they are alive?

Well those that have been released have told us about their whereabouts, that women and small girls and boys and men were separated from eachother, and the women were held in a small room and had to schedule their sleeping. That is all we really know now.

At the time there were people who had been released and said they had been ordered released by Shariah judges...

That information has not been reliable, some said that, others said they had been released because of health issues. Mostly elderly people.

The fact that they were not just executed, even though they were a burden for ISIS, may be a sign of hope, no?

Definately. But we also know from kidnappings from Mosul or the Nineveh, of at least one Assyrian woman, and an Assyrian kid who were given to ISIS members as gifts. So it’s devastating, and people keep fleeing... Those who managed to flee from Khabour went to Hassekeh, and then from Hassekeh to Qamishli, from Qamishli back to Khabour, where there were a lot of mines. Now they don't know where to flee. It keeps repeating itself, it’s been repeating itself since 1915, then 1933 and so on, and now, since 2004 we keep reportiong and reminding the world about this genocide, but no action is taken to save the Christian/Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriacs/Armenians and other Christians in Syria and Iraq.

I don't know, I have no words besides that one lion was killed and the whole world was furious, now all these people are getting kidnapped and slaughtered, why isn't the world furious about that? Why? Somebody needs to give an answer.

And its not just Christians, it’s also Muslims. ISIS is getting more and more violent, against everyone.

One year ago Mosul fell and the world woke up to ISIS. Did you imagine that one year later we would be in the same situation?

Yes. We also actually predicted Mosul, and the Nineveh plains. For years, in both DC and Brussels, we reported about it, we feared it. So it’s very sad and horrible, terrifying, but it’s not surprising.

You live in Sweden, where there is a big Assyrian community. Are there relatives of those who were kidnapped?

I will actually see one of the relatives of those from Habour, she has 42 of her family members kidnapped, and I spoke to a young man and a lady today who have relatives missing from the Homs area, but they are not sure if they are kidnapped or not, because they are not on the list that they saw.

"We will be the salt and the light of the Arab World"

This is a full transcript, in English, of my interview with Patriarch Gregorios III Laham, of the Melkite Church. His Beatitude speaks of the situation of Christians in the Middle East but also about particularities of the Eastern Catholic Churches, such as ordination of married men outside of the ancestral territories of the Patriarchates, etc. The news report can be seen here, in Portuguese, but is accompanied by a video which is in English, subtitled in Portuguese. The interview was conducted in English, some of the Patriarch's answers were edited for clarity, but always respecting his meaning. 

Transcrição integral, no inglês original, da entrevista ao Patriarca Gregório III, da Igreja Melquita. A notícia encontra-se aqui. 

You are in Portugal to speak about the situation of the Christians in Iraq and Syria. What will you be telling your audiences?

First, we are very thankful that you are so aware in Portugal and elsewhere about this situation, especially of the Christians as part of society in Syria. We are especially thankful to Aid to the Church in Need.

The events in Iraq in June, with the expulsion of about 120.000 Christians, and also some Yezidis from Mosul and Nineveh, were a shock for the whole Middle East. It had a great impact in Syria, because the Syrians were more optimistic, the situation was better, the government was doing well, the army was having more successes, but with this shock of Iraq the people were disappointed, skeptical, pessimistic, and more and more people are leaving today, because they are afraid that something similar will happen to them. 

Currently the main places of fear are near the border with Turkey, near Aleppo, in the North... Aleppo is a real prison, it has been for months. Several times without water, without electricity, and sometimes without food. But they are very courageous, and very united, the bishops and the people, but many left, especially the rich people who could help others. And many factories have been destroyed...

Damascus is less dangerous, it is the capital. We hear bombs and planes attacking, but more from the government against these mercenaries and bandits and groups. There are about 2000 groups working in Syria, fighting in Syria, against the government.

People say it is a civil war, but I can't say it is a civil war. Civil war means different factions of the country fighting each other. Here you have a government and mercenaries and groups from inside, from outside, fighting, attacking, kidnapping, and so on. It is not a civil war, it is not even a real revolution. It is a crisis, which is bigger because of the influence and invasion of other groups from outside. 

Daily we hear that people from Holland, Britain, Germany, are going to Syria. It is against human and natural law to go from Holland to fight against me in Syria, or to destroy my house. It's not like the first or the second world wars, not even like the war in Lebanon, there it was a real civil war, here it is all militias, militias, militias. 

The chaos is the biggest danger today. You don't know. Every place is safe in Syria and every place is dangerous.

Here in the West we see Christians being persecuted. Many people want to help. But what can they do?

First of all, really, if we had a consensus with the Arab world and Europe, to stop the war, this is the best help, because even with the huge humanitarian help by international organizations, the churches, Catholic and others, in spite of that, we can't cope with all the needs of our people. 

Daily we have more people needing help. For example, in my Patriarchate in Damascus we started a small community for about 300 families. Now we have 8000, and everyday more and more.

Children are dying, there are no schools, little food, now the winter, medicine, operations, handicapped people, kidnapped people and ransoms. Daily we have huge numbers and different sorts of tragedies and needs.

We have had lots of help, from the Vatican, Aid to the Church in Need, the Holy Father, Congregation for the Eastern Churches, Cor Unum, Ouvre d'Orient, Caritas, they are helping a lot, as well as our international friends. It is a lot of help, but we are not able to cope with the needs of the people. 

The second is really to stop the traffic of weapons. Pope Francis said that the biggest problem today is weapon trafficking... In Europe there are economic problems, and the weapons business and the war are ways of improving the economy in Europe and America.

For me, as a priest, as a bishop – very independent, very free, and with no tension or influences – we don't need these wars in the Middle East to change. We can change without that. The Islamic world was changing already before ISIS and so on, in general you could see development in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, without these wars and crises... we don't need it.

It is really an awful war and Europe is responsible for that, with the USA and with Russia. All together. I am sure that if one day the interests of Russia and America coincide we will have peace. As long as they don't realize how to do that, we will continue to have war. It is not ISIS... sure they have influence, but the real problem is somewhere else.

Assad warned that a change of regime would open the doors to radical Islam. Is the regime vital to coexistence?

The situation in Syria, the conditions of life together, coexistence, freedom of religion and of worship, churches, schools, development of industry and so on, is not only the result of the regime or the Ba'ath party. 

The party did a lot for the development of the country, but this coexistence, this freedom, is not a result of this party, which was founded by a Christian. It is an ancient tradition. In the time of the Ottomans, the best place to live, for Christians, was Syria and Lebanon, called Sham. These were countries where Christians could live. 

When you go out to other Arab countries, like the Emirates, the Gulf states, it is another Arabic Islamic situation. But the place where Christians used to live in security, in freedom and coexistence, cordiality, together, flourishing and respected, are these countries. So I wonder, what can these movements bring us more? I don't know. 

If there is an alternative, what is it? Who can bring me, as a Christian, as a Muslim, as Druze, as Shiite, more than I have now in terms of living together, peaceful coexistence of churches and mosques, living together in different quarters, with Christian business men having more Muslim employees than Christians... It is wonderful. I like to tell the Western countries, we live together better than in some countries in Europe. 

Many Christians were taken up by the pan-Arab nationalist movements in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Has that dream died?

Well, it is in great danger. Not because of Islamism, these movements are instruments for something else. For me the biggest danger and the biggest problem and cause of this instability in the Middle East is the failure by Europe and the Arab world to solve the conflict between Palestine and Israel.

Iraqi Christian refugees in Erbil

I served for 26 years as bishop in Jerusalem, before becoming Patriarch. I can tell you that all the problems in these countries are related to the problem in Israel and Palestine. As long as there is no solution it means this conflict will be an excuse for many countries, including Arab countries, to dominate their people, not to do what they have to do, and not to liberate and give freedom and development. They spend a lot of money on weapons, but for nothing. The greatest interest is for Israel. 

Security for Israel? I am ok with that. But also security for Palestinians. The security of Israel is more in the hands of the Palestinians than in the hands of Europe and America, because as we say in Arabic, your neighbor is more important than your own house.

The Holy Father Pope Francis, when he came to Jordan in May, said there are two keys to peace in the Middle East and the world. First, a real political and diplomatic, comprehensive, consensus solution for the crisis in Syria.

Second, justice for Palestine. These two things have to be considered in all policies. But they are not considered.

The European Union is 50 years old. I told them, look, you have 50 years of peaceful coexistence. Please help Arabs, don't divide Arabs. Help us to be united. It is better humanity, for development, for young generations and also for peace for you. 

If we solve the Palestinian Israeli conflict we will have less aggressive Islam in Europe. We will have better Islam in Europe, they can be better integrated, there will be more understanding and more dialogue. The danger for you is bigger than the danger for us. Islam in Europe will be more dangerous than in our lands, because we have a long experience of living together, we will be successful, we will live after this crisis. So for the sake of Europe and the Islamic presence in Europe, you need to help solve the problem.

Holland is now willing to recognize the State of Palestine. I asked the Holy Father, when I was with him on the 20th of October in Rome, I said please, be the first state, not the last, to recognize Palestine and you will help Christians and Muslims alike, and Jews also. 

The salvation, the security of the Jews are in our hands and not in the hands others. 

There has been more and more talk of creating a safe-haven for Christians in the Middle East, do you think the time has come for this?

Never! Never. Never. It was maybe a temptation in the past centuries, but no more. 

When Israel defined itself as a Jewish state, there were no protests, which is a pity. I am ok with the existence of Israel, but Jewish state? What for? Where am I as a Christian, or as a Druze, as a Palestinan Muslim... What is the difference between a Jewish state and Shari'a? Jewish state means the law of the Jewish religion. 

After the creation of a Jewish state some want to have an Alawite state, a shiite state, a Druze state, a Kurdish state, and so on and so on, what is the future? Nothing. 

We can't live separated! We have a history of living together. I told my people, we will not have our state, we will be in all states and being, in these states, salt and light. This is the future. Christians cannot live alone. We don't have a ghetto spirit. We have to avoid the ghetto spirit. To be put in a corner, or like a resort to save animals or plants... We are the cradle of Christianity, the birthplace of Christianity, we don't need a state.

I wrote a letter to my people and I quoted the letter to Diognetus, which is well known. I told my people, this is the answer to you. Already in the second century this was it.

The Holy Father said, in Evangeli Gaudium, that people think that the problems of today are worse and more difficult than the problems in the first century. It is not true, it is the opposite! For 300 years we had no rights, it was pagan, now we have churches, schools, congregations, we have processions, we have everything. We were able to overcome then, why not today? We have to give hope to our people, because the danger is so big, they are leaving. They are in great fear.

As pastors we have to be very strong and near to our people. We thank the Lord that all patriarchs and bishops are very near to their people.

Christian leaders have always been against the creation of armed militias for the Christian communities, but since the purge of Mosul and other Christian areas, many have defended the legitimacy of an armed response. What is your opinion?

We are not able be armed and we don't like to be armed. 

I said in 2012, in a letter, we were not asked to be armed, in Syria, we are not asking to be armed and we don't like to be armed. Now, it is different to say that in some places we need to have self defense possibility. Not to attack, not militia. Militia is not for Christians. Lebanon used that approach and it was a very, very bad experience. We don't need that, we are different. The Arabic world needs us like this, and not like militias.

We have to convince our people not to take up arms. We have to see other solutions. So I am asking the whole world, why, after years and centuries, are we always solving problems with war? Why not think of something else? In the XXI century the states are only thinking of more and more weapons. The church has to change minds in the states and not to see everything in terms of weapons and militias. This is not the answer, not for the future.

We had 1400 years with Islam without weapons, why not continue without weapons?

But many middle Eastern Christians reject the idea that they are Arabs, and claim to be Assyrians, how do you react to that?

Who is Arab? Where is the pure Arabic blood? Many Muslims were Christians, Assyrians, Greek Catholic, and so on. Many admit this, that they were Christians. Until the XIII century the majority of the Middle East was Christian. How did they become Muslim? Over time.

Being Arabic is something difficult to define. There are different linguistic or geographic groups. It is a mixture of different groups. You can't differentiate. I am Greek Catholic, because of the Greek language, but I am Syrian, just like the Assyrians, because it was the invasion of the Greek language and all the Middle East was speaking Greek in the cities. Even the founders of the Syriac church did not speak Syriac. They are called Syriac Fathers, but they spoke Greek. 

So the difference between Arabs and non-Arabs, Assyrians, Syrians, Chaldeans... The same country has different languages, or similar languages.

What is Assyrian? Assyrian, Syrian, Chaldean, Hebrew, Cananean, Philistines... These people are closer to each other than Europeans, because our languages are closer to each other than European. 

I am happy that we have many rites. Coptic, Syrian, Armenian... We have more pluralism than Europe. I say keep your tradition! Think in Arabic, but think also in Coptic, Greek, Armenian, Syrian, Assyrian, Chaldean... How beautiful!

Before the war we had one million Iraqis and they were singing and praying in our churches in Chaldean, it was so beautiful to hear them! In Maaloula Muslims speak Aramaic, just like the Christians. So this distinction between Arabs and non-Arabs... We are in the Arab World. We are Kurds, Druze, Shiite, Christian…

The "arabity" is a Christian trait. We brought that. Some people say, keep your Christians to keep your "arabity", because if there are no more Christians in the Middle East, only Muslims, they will call themselves Muslims, not Arabs. Even though the Koran is in Arabic, they will say we are Muslim. Arabic is the language, but the nation is Islam. 

So in order to keep a real Arab world, an Arab spring, even, we have to keep Christians there. Not only are we interested in staying, you are interested in us staying. This is a real mission.

That is why I said in my letter to other Christians, it is not the time to be only afraid. There are reasons to be afraid, but it is also time to see where is our mission? I like to tell Christians in Europe, never speak of our presence without speaking about our role and our mission. A presence without a role is nothing, a role without a presence is nothing, therefore we have to think about the Christian presence and the Christian role, and in the very beautiful words of Saint John Paul II, the essence of the human being is to be with and for. I am with the Arab World, but I am for the Arab World, that they may have life, and life in abundance. 

How wonderful is this mission? The essence is to be with, but also for. That is the whole sense of this awareness of the world about Christians, not for themselves, to be present, but to be more, to bring the light of the Gospel, the joy of the Gospel, the values of the Gospel in the world. 

There are many different Christian churches in the Middle East, each with its own Patriarch, liturgy, traditions, language… The feeling is that Christians do not speak as one community and with one voice. Is this a problem, and how can it be overcome?
Because of dogmas, sometimes we have some problems. But for the pastoral, for the social presence, for the works and so on, we are one, especially today. We thank the Lord that we have a wonderful set of Patriarchs today, very united, and we had, since June of this year, many meetings together, all Patriarchs, not just Catholics. We went together to Arbil, to visit the refugees of our brothers, the Iraqis, Yezidis, Christians and Muslims. And we went together to Washington where we had a meeting with Obama, for 40 minutes, all together, and we have many declarations, thank the Lord, with one voice. We are very grateful for that and we want the World to hear our voice. One of the means to realize peace in the Middle East is to hear the voice of the churches. 

We don't have interests, no money, nothing, no militias, we are really, in favour of our countries, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon... We are not servants of a regime, no, no, no! We are strongly together, to bring peace.

I sent a letter to the Holy Father and also to the Bishop's conferences in the world. Giving a little paper and asking them, can we make a paper and give it to the Orthodox, the Anglicans, Lutherans and together having one paper for peace in the Middle East... This is a very beautiful and unique chance for the Church to be peacemaker, and that means real power for the Christians in the Middle East, good for dialog to continue in the Middle East and also in Europe. It is a great chance and I hope it will work. We were together with the Holy Father on the 21st and he said Yes, I hope they will do that, to have one document, one word of the whole world towards peace in the Middle East.

Were you satisfied with the results of the Synod for Middle Eastern bishops?

It was really an act of providence. Just before the crisis in the Middle East we had this wonderful chance to join together, Catholic bishops, but also the Orthodox, who were represented, Muslims and Jews... It was providential of Benedict XVI to have this synod, giving a plan for the Christians to be strong and to remain at home. What we need today we have in this document, to remain in our places, and all problems we need to speak about are in this document. 

We are very, very happy, and it is providence that this happened just before the start of the Arab Spring and the troubles.

Two of the only things the synod fathers requested, permission to ordain married men in diaspora communities and direct authority over your communities, were denied...

In November last year we had a meeting with the Pope for 4 hours. All Patriarchs of the Eastern Churches, and also the Archbishop-majors, and we spoke of these problems. One result is that today it is ok to ordain married men in America, and not only, in Europe, slowly, because we don't have these huge communities, but it is possible also.

This is official?

Yes, yes, official. With some indications to be discrete, because we have to go slowly, but it is ok. 

As for the authority of the Patriarchs outside, it is not so much as we wished. But it is up to us to organize ourselves. If we have more relations with the Latin Church in the countries where we have people, we can reach more with relations than with Canon Law, or with rules. And I think through the war now, and the crisis in the Middle East, I think there is more and more sensitivity towards us, and this is very important. 

Some Eastern Rite Catholics complain about the restrictions and say that they feel like second class catholics. Do you ever feel that way?

No. We had this experience of the synods and I attended many. There are feelings of family and respect. They are happy to hear us. We have more and more communication with them... I don't think that.

We do have better relations with the Cardinals and bishops outside the Curia. The Curia is very legalistic. We have better friendship with the Church outside the circle of the Roman Latin Church. It is different, you know, the Latins in Rome are one thing and the Latins outside Rome are something else. But it is the Church.

Pope Francis was the ordinary for the Greek-Catholic Communities in Argentina, do you expect a better understanding from him?

Well, this meeting in November last year, was a sign of that, and the same with the consistory on the 21st. He is always praying for Syria and for the Middle East.

We can't forget the prayer for Syria in September 7th last year. For 5 hours we were praying and we avoided the attack against Syria. The warships were on the coast with Syria. But there was no aggression, and Syria became a member of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, it was a change.

I think he is very sensitive. In Argentina he was in touch with all communities, Catholic, Orthodox, and also Muslims and Jews. And he grew up in a very plural society and therefore he brought such a beautiful change and a new outlook for the Vatican. 

There is a tradition among Melkites of refusing to be made cardinals...

Yes, it is very rare. One Patriarch became Cardinal in the XIV or XVI century. But in the modern times, only Maximos IV, who was forced to accept as a sign of reverence. But for my predecessor Maximos V and for myself it is not a question. 

This is a Roman thing, not Oriental. We are more than cardinals, not by rank, but by jurisdiction. I am the Pope of my church. 

I like to say, jokingly, that as a Patriarch I am a big archbishop and a little Pope. In many things, unless there are problems, I can rule and serve my church without any reference to Rome. 

Respecting the tradition of the Eastern churches is a mission for us. Because we are the voice of the Orthodox inside all the jurisdiction and meetings of the Catholic Church. We are the presence of the absentee. If something is related to the Orthodox, we are there. We are immediately giving the point of view of the Orthodox and Eastern churches, and that is a big service that we provide.

Fifty years ago [Ecumenical Patriarch] Athenagoras met my predecessor Maximos IV. Maximos said to Athenagoras, “I was speaking always thinking of you”. And Athenegoras answered, “You were speaking on my behalf”. That is why we are so very faithful to our tradition, because it is the tradition of the Church. As John Paul II said in Orientale Lumen, a beautiful document, the Eastern Churches are churches, the same level as the Latin Church. It is not a special Church, it is the Church of God, the same, in the Middle East, in the Eastern as well as in the Western Church.

If somebody asked you if they should go and fight with the Kurds against the Islamic State, what would you respond?

Let us be ourselves and let Syria and Iraq solve the problems by ourselves. We used to be together for many years. Let the little people work together, and as I said, don't divide the Arab world. 

The people who fight are motivated by money and lack of sense of life. I don't think the jihadists coming from Britain, from Germany or Sweden are really willing to be jihadists or to be Muslim, they have no sense of life and they find adventure. 

Therefore I am really not afraid of them, and I would like to invite the European Union and the Western world to work for better Islamic united world, a united Arabic world, and you will have peace in your country. Peace in our countries is peace for Europe. We are one. We cannot forget the Mediterranean... it is our water. We need a good future for peace in our countries. No war! As Paul VI said. And let the little people work together.

You are interfering because you are powerful and you have weapons. You have to change your mind and do something else. Christianity is always a new look, the World today needs a new look. Not only wars and weapons and so on. We have to think of something new.

We had a bad experience of wars for centuries in the Middle East. The Gospel is a new look over the world. We hope that we can bring more light to our world.

“Cristãos serão o sal e a luz do mundo árabe”