Christians in Nigeria "live with fear in their hearts"

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Fr. Gideon Obasogie, director of communications in the Catholic diocese of Maiduguri, in the extreme North East of Nigeria, bordering Niger, Chad and the Cameroon. The news report, in Portuguese, can be read here. 

Esta é uma transcrição completa, no inglês original, da minha entrevista ao Pe. Gideon Obasogie, director de comunicação da diocese católica de Maiduguri, no extremo nordeste da Nigéria, na fronteira com o Níger, o Chade e os Camarões. A reportagem pode ser lida aqui. 

Your diocese has has been badly affected by Boko Haram...

Sure. It is the epicenter, the birthplace of Boko Haram.

Boko Haram has slightly disappeared from the news cycle. Is the threat still as real as it was a few years ago?

From your question I can take two important facts. You say it seems to have disappeared, but no, it has not. But journalists do not go in there to get news, it is difficult, it is dangerous and sometimes they don't have security cover.

On the other hand, it is quite true that compared to 2014, Boko Haram has been reduced to a small corner. They were pushed to the fringes of the Sambisa forest and to the Lake Chad region.

Though there have not been attacks in the city of Maiduguri, as we had in 2014, we have attacks on the fringes of the Sambisa forest every other day.

Are there Christian communities in that area?

There are Christian communities which have returned after the displacement of 2014 and the diocese, the bishop, has sent priests to work with them. As priests we get firsthand information from those on the ground, and even from our friends.

Have you ever been in this area which is more affected by the terrorists?

The parish I worked in until 2013 was displaced, attacked and burned down by Boko Haram. Though we fled, we were not killed, but we have a lot of friends, family and parishioners who were kidnapped or killed, and there was 100% structural destruction, because the priest's residences were burned down, one of the priests who was on a break for two weeks had his house looted and burned while he was away.

In the diocese we have 26 priests who were displaced in 2014-15.

Of course, not all Muslims are terrorists. Has the persecution affected relations between Muslims and Christians on the ground?

As you said, I also do not believe that every Muslim is a Boko Haram terrorist. While we have some who are sympathizers, there are still Muslims who are very good at heart. As far as the relationship between Christians and Muslims, there seems to be some clear and quiet relationship, on a very good note, but people have fear in their heart.

There was a boy who lost his father to Boko Haram, when he was very young, and his mother found it very difficult to explain to him that his father was caught up in a bomb attack. When she was able to explain to him, at the age of 8, after four years of not hearing about his father's whereabouts - because there was no corpse to bury, he was cut up in the bomb blast - she told him that Boko Haram had killed his father. And the young boy, who was only 8, told his mother that when he grew up he would kill Boko Haram.

That is the situation we are faced with now as a diocese.

Besides the situation in your diocese, there has been violence between Fulani herdsmen and Christians in the rest of the country.

Nigeria is a very wonderful nation, a complex reality, a blessed nation. I still believe it is the giant of Africa. We still have attacks everywhere. In the northeast Boko Haram, in the South we have kidnapping, Fulani herders who have killed a lot of priests in Nigeria, Northwest, South, every part of Nigeria has its own bit of conflict and crisis. All this is a result of poor governance and bad leadership.

O pe. Gideon com uma das alunas vítimsa do Boko Haram

When we have good leadership, people ready to protect the interest of the nation, they should put security in place, so people can live in peace and harmony. So, we still have attacks every other day, people are being kidnapped, insecurity... People say its poverty that is responsible for these attacks, which I refuse to believe... Poverty has been there from time immemorial. Poverty cannot be the reason for kidnapping, where was kidnapping before? It could be, on a very social economic level, but I think the Nigerian leaders need to do more.

There have been accusations that the President, who is Fulani, has not been doing enough.

What the Catholic bishops said was just the blatant truth. The Government should stand up and do what it is supposed to do... protection of the life and property of the citizens. And any government that is short in that should really pack and go. The Government has been doing its best, we can say, but it needs to do more. President Muhammadu Buhari, when he came on board, made a lot of promises... But perhaps due to his ill health the status quo is still as it was in the beginning.

Are there also Christian Fulanis?

From the word go Fulanis have been very, very peaceful people. All of a sudden we see Fulani men carrying AK47s. In my opinion there is some influence of Boko Haram infiltration into the Fulani system.

I have never met a Christian Fulani, but I'm not saying they don't exist, there should be some. But what we are interested in knowing is at what point did the Fulani men start carrying arms? They carried sticks to protect their animals, but of late the conflict between them - which I know, people will say it has been there for a very long time between farmers and herders - but there should be a positive way of reconciling this crisis, it shouldn't lead to the loss of lives.

So do you believe there is outside infiltration by Boko Haram... Do you believe there are also other forces from outside Nigeria, trying to destabilize?

If you have been following the news of Boko Haram of late, it has a numeric strength of about six thousand fighters, which has been divided into two factions. There is ISWAP, Islamic State of West Africa Province, which has pledged allegiance to ISIS and we have the JAS - amā'at Ahl as-Sunnah lid-Da'wah wa'l-Jihād -, under Ahubahar Shekau. The Shekeu group are in the Sambisa forest, the rest are in the Chad border area. So, if there is a faction called ASWAP that tells you all you need to know, that it is linked to international bodies. We hope and pray that it should be exterminated and cleansed, because Nigeria is known to be a place for peaceful coexistence between Christians and Muslims. So, we still hope that we shall come to see days when we shall live without terrorism.

What has been the importance to ACN in Nigeria?

I am here at the invitation of ACN, about to present their report Persecuted and Forgotten? We, in Nigeria, dare to say that we are persecuted but never forgotten. Why? Because of ACN. Aid to the Church in Need has assisted not only my diocese, but most dioceses, almost every other diocese in Nigeria. They are rebuilding our structures, providing skillful acquisition agencies, medical health, schools for our orphans, because the diocese has about 15 thousand orphans and 5 thousand widows. The bishop is left to see how they are fed and taken care of medically, and ACN has been a very serious support, it has assisted the diocese in reconstructing our structures, in training the priests, in providing relief materials for Internally Displaced People. And I think that the diocese of Maiduguri would be nowhere without agencies like ACN.

---

Fr. Gideon visited Portugal at the invitation of Aid to the Church in Need

Samaan’s misfortune

Fr. Saaman Shehata

A run of misfortune yesterday left one man dead in Egypt.

The bad luck began with the fact that Samaan Shehata was from Beni Suef, a poor region in Egypt. Because of that poverty, he had offered to go to Cairo to gather humanitarian aid which had been made available to his community.

The next stroke of bad luck was the fact that a crazy man – at least the police considered him crazy even though he was not diagnosed by a professional – saw him walking down the street and decided to give chase. Unfortunately the mad man had a knife, with which he stabbed him several times.

There were plenty of people on the street, but as luck would have it, nobody came to his aid.

But apparently Samaan did not die straight away. But he was terribly unfortunate in that it took over na hour for the ambulance to arrive and, when it did, he was unlucky in that the first responders decided not to attend to his wounds.

The police arrived later and partly due to misfortune, partly because they already knew the killer was a mad man – even though he had not been diagnosed by a professional – they didn’t set up a crime scene or investigate further.

In the midst of all this misfortune, there is one coincidence. All this happened on the same day that Aid to the Church in Need presented a report in Lisbon, where I live and work, which concluded that Christian persecution has reached levels never before seen in history. That means that we are worse off now than we were when the Romans had Christians devoured by wild animals in the arena.

What does this have to do with Samaan Shehata? It so happens that Samaan is a Coptic Christian priest. As a Coptic priest he would have been easily identifiable by his long black cassock and traditional hat. He would have been easy to spot by somebody – crazy or not – who would want to kill him. And as luck would have it there is no shortage of men in Egypt – crazy or not – who want to kill Christians.

On second thought, maybe none of this had anything to do with misfortune at all. Because this story is becoming all to common, it’s happened too many times before, to be put down to bad luck. Misfortune had nothing to do with the fact that bombs were placed in Egyptian churches in April this year, killing almost 50 people. Misfortune did not kill the pilgrims whose buses were pulled over, massacred by automatic gunfire by the side of the road.

Father Saaman’s parishioners have been left without a pastor. His wife – Coptic priests are traditionally married – is now a widow and his children orphans. But that isn’t bad luck either. It’s just one of the risks that comes with being a Christian in the Middle East.

Filipe d'Avillez 

Christians “cautiously joyful” with liberation of Nineveh Plains

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my conversation with Swedish Assyrian journalist and activist Nuri Kino about the liberation of Qaraqosh and other Christian towns and villages in the Mossul region. Read the news story, in Portuguese, here.

Transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista ao jornalista e activista sueco/assírio sobre a libertação de Qaraqosh e de outras vilas e aldeias cristãs na região de Mossul. A reportagem está aqui.

We have had conflicting reports about the situation in Qaraqosh. From your information, what is the situation on the ground?

The news regarding the Christians is that Bartella, a town of about 30 thousand inhabitants prior to ISIS, has been fully liberated. We have received videos and pictures of the church bells ringing. That is of course very satisfying.

When it comes to Qaraqosh we received pictures of the main hospital being liberated, the town hall buildings and also the Iraqi Army headquarters. But it is very hard to know if it is totally liberated or not. We are also receiving conflicting information about that.

I just spoke to two of the priests from Qaraqosh and they also have no full information, but the Iraqi army and some of the Christian forces are supposed to be inside Qaraqosh.

Two days ago we received information that it had been liberated. Then information came a couple of hours later saying that there were about 20 ISIS suicide bombers and snipers left in Qaraqosh and they were shooting people from the rooftops. Also, one of the biggest problems is the mines. There are a lot of mines around the city, both anti-personnel mines and street mines.

But we believe that Qaraqosh will be liberated today. [Saturday 21^st October]

How does that make you and other Christians feel?

Qaraqosh is about 70% Syriac Catholic and 30% Syriac Orthodox and I am Syriac Orthodox. For us there is no difference whether it is in southeast Turkey, where I was born, or in Syria or Iraq, or in Iran or in Lebanon. We are all the same nation, the same ethnicity, the same people with different names: Assyrian, Syriac, Chaldean...

Of course, after more than two years of ISIS in our home towns, we are very happy to see it, though we are also careful and cautious, because we never know how things will turn.

Look at what happened in Kirkuk yesterday... All of a sudden sleeping terrorist cells in Kirkuk started to hit the street, more than 20 suicide bombers. They also kidnapped some people and threatened to kill them, and battles are ongoing in Kirkuk, which is also a bit Iraqi city.

So I would say that we are cautiously joyful.

Also, after the liberation there is a lot of work to be done for our people to return to the Nineveh plane, where Bartella and Qaraqosh are. The Swedish MEP Lars Adaktusson is presenting a new resolution in the European Parliament about self-administration in the Nineveh Plane and two other provinces in Northern Iraq, so that these people can feel that they get their dignity back and rule their own areas, or at least get some power in the administrations, so that the inhabitants can feel confident to come back.

Also it is about dignity, so as to get their dignity back. The same thing is going on in Washington DC, there are political movements and political solutions – hopefully – so that people can move back.

In Iraq, before the fall of Saddam, approximately 1.3 million Christians lived there. After the fall of Mossul, we don't know, but we estimate that there are more not more than 250 thousand left.

So more than one million have already left the country, and people are emigrating every day, because they lost hope in the world leaders to protect them. But we do have some hope in what is happening these days, in the liberation of Nineveh and Mossul, and we also have hope in the political solutions that will be on the table over the coming weeks.

Are Christians afraid to be caught in between Baghdad and the Kurds, over who actually controls this region...

That has been going on since the fall of Saddam, it’s nothing new. It’s not a question of being afraid, we know it’s a fact, it’s been a fact for a decade now. So that is why we are asking for self-administration, so as not to be caught in the middle.

Will Bagdad and Kurdistan accept that idea?

Well we hope on the European Union and on Washington and the UN.

A little ringtone for your Saturday ... the church bells ringing in Bartella outside Mosul just liberated from #ISIS pic.twitter.com/qncchINW6Y

— Mindy Belz (@mcbelz) October 22, 2016

"Christians need a safe zone under UN protection for at least 10 years"

The Patriarch in Fátima

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius Joseph III, of the Syriac Catholic Church. News story (in Portuguese) can be read here.

Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista ao Patriarca da Igreja Católica Siríaca. A reportagem pode ser lida aqui.

What brings you to Portugal?

This is my first visit to Portugal. I have wanted to make such a pilgrimage to Our Lady of Fátima for several years. We organised this trip for prayer, to pray to her for peace in the Middle East. I did the same thing three years ago when I organised another pilgrimage to Lourdes, in France. So it is a trip of hope, of renewed veneration to the Mother of the Lord, the Virgin Mary, whom we venerate very much in the East.

Is devotion to Our Lady of Fátima widespread among the faithful in your church?

Not really, not as much as to Our Lady of Lourdes, but we will work on it. We are finishing the first church dedicated to Our Lady of Fátima in Lebanon. Actually we, the Syriac Catholic Church, have also the first church dedicated to Our Lady of Fátima in Syria, which is in Damascus. It was dedicated forty years ago. So we try surely to spread the devotion to Our Lady of Fátima since hers was especially a message of peace, hope, penance and return to the Lord, which we very much appreciate in these times of darkness which surrounds all aspects of life in the Middle East, in particular Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.

Five years after the beginning of the war in Syria, how do you assess the current situation?

We are all devastated, especially by this hypocritical agenda of the Western politicians. They don't care for anything besides their own interests. I just read about the visit of the second ranking person in Saudi Arabia, the son of the present King, to France. He was welcomed with tremendous respect by the French President and everybody knows that these kind of relations are based on – it’s very sad to say – a Machiavellian agenda, for the interests of both countries, without thinking about the many infractions and retrograde regime which is not even accepted by the family of civilised nations because of the lack of respect for Human Rights.

We are so sad to see that we have been forgotten. Christian minorities have been living in the region for Millennia and we have been forgotten by the so called civilised Western nations. The same ones which pretend to protect the charter of human rights and democracy, equality and religious and civil liberties.

How often do you travel to Syria?

I was born in Syria. As you know, unlike his eminence Manuel III [Patriarch of Lisbon] who is a Patriarch merely in title, we as patriarchs of Eastern Churches are the heads of Churches sui iuris, so the Patriarch is a spiritual head and has to visit his flock, his church, wherever they exist.

So I was recently in Sweden for two weeks, to inquire about the situation of our emigrants, especially those who were forced to flee Syria and Iraq. It's not easy for us.

I usually travel at least once a month to Syria, but not to every spot in Syria. I am tied to Damascus, Homs and the Coast. The other regions, like the North-eastern region, Aleppo, Hassakeh, it is not possible for me to travel.

Your brother Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church survived an assassination attempt just one week ago. Are you constantly under threat?

I think we all, in the Middle East, live a kind of threat and we can't just say that we have to avoid those threats, or we won't fulfil our spiritual and pastoral duties. Of course, we were so sad to hear about that attempt, and I did call him, we spoke right after it, and we keep always in touch, we encourage each other, we try to do our best to fulfil our responsibilities.

In this occasion, his life was saved by the intervention of members of Sutoro, a Christian militia which works closely with the Kurds. Is there a place for Christian militias in Syria?

I do not agree with this terminology, saying that there are militias. There are Christian groups which want to defend their villages, their towns, because they did endure attacks by the Islamic State and those terrorists and many were killed or kidnapped or forced into Exodus. So we encourage our people to defend themselves within the legal army or security forces. We don't speak about militias which go out and fight others, like their neighbours, or take part in conflicts outside the areas where they live.

But in Iraq or in Syria, for example, it is not possible for the government or army to be everywhere, because the sectarian war has been going on and on for years, so the people have a duty to defend themselves. Both the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch and myself agree that we have to stand up to defend lives, families, women, children from being slaughtered like sheep in these savage attacks.

Therefore I am not talking about militias as they are usually described. We don't have militias, we have people who want to defend themselves, their houses and their villages.

Some Christian groups advocate for autonomy in majority Christian areas in Iraq and Syria, mainly in the Nineveh plains. What is your opinion on this?

Let's take each country separately. In Iraq there is no longer anywhere where our people can exist in dignity and liberty other than in a safe zone. There is no one description of what that safe zone would be. Usually one speaks about a kind of province, where Christians and minorities, in the Plain of Nineveh, could live together.

Still now, in Iraq, we have the Plain of Nineveh, where the majority are Sunni Arabs and minorities like Christians, Yazidis, Shabaks and Kurds are not accepted as citizens with full rights. They have been tolerated, so we have been talking about a kind of safe zone, like a province, or a zone which would be decentralized, that is, under the protection of the United Nations for at least about 10 years, until we find a way for real coexistence between various ethnic, confessional and religious groups.

So we are not talking about an autonomous region, this would be unrealistic. We are talking about a kind of safe zone either dependant on the central government in Baghdad, or on Kurdistan. Until now we don't know which of these will control the plain of Nineveh. But for humanitarian reasons we do need some kind of international protection, otherwise the Plain of Nineveh, which is the cradle of Christianity in Mesopotamia, will be empty and when it is empty it will not be for a period of time, but forever, because usually Christians and others don't feel safe when they are not accepted as full rights citizens by a majority which mixes religion and state. That is why we need this kind of international supervision or protection.

Patriarch Ignatius Joseph celebrates
mass in Fátima, with Syriac pilgrims

When ISIS really rose up and took Mosul and much of the Nineveh Plain, Kurds were the only ones who immediately resisted the jihadists and gave protection to the Christians. But since then I have also heard grumblings from some local Christians that the Kurds are really more interested in consolidating power than sharing it with Christians, Yazidis and other minorities. Your thoughts?

As you just said, Christians and other minorities had no other safe option than to get to Kurdistan, because Kurdistan was a nearby region where they could find refuge. The Islamic State fighters and others used to control all other areas.

Now, of course we all know that the Kurds want their own autonomous country, or territory. We will have to recognise that they have the right to have their own autonomous and independent region, or state. The problem is that many of those who are talking about this very delicate issue think that Kurds had to sacrifice themselves for others. It wasn't so simple. They were on the front line with the Islamic State fighters and they had to defend their own autonomous region, with a long front, about 800 kilometres, so it wasn't easy.

Now we don't know what will happen in the future, because we are talking about minority groups like Christians which, it is very sad to say, are not drawing the interest of the super powers or nations, especially of the Western World. So we have been left alone. Where to go? Baghdad has been almost half-emptied of its Christians, and we have no other option than the plain of Nineveh or Kurdistan. We need to go back to our motherland, the Plain of Nineveh, and to live peacefully with others.

So who is going to give us the assurance that we can live in equal rights with the majority? We need the help of the international community to tell the central government of Baghdad and the Kurdish government that these small communities, the minorities, have the right to live in their own land, with the dignity of human beings and they have to provide them with the conditions for a right to live in dignity.

This is in Iraq. In Syria we can't talk about an autonomous region, because Christians are, or were, spread in almost every spot in the country and we didn't have these kind of attacks against Christians as such, but because we have been left, in some areas, alone, and the army of the country could not help to defend everywhere, not only Christians, but also people from other religions or confessions who have been attacked.

Christians mostly feel that they have to be with their compatriots of other religions, and just focus on civil rights issues to build again a nation with equal citizenship amongst all, to build a civilised country for the future. So we try especially to explain to the international families, the tragedies of our people, especially the Christians, in Iraq, to help us stay in our land, and the first condition for that is to be given international protection.

Many people expected the conflict to spill over into Lebanon, but until now, things have been relatively peaceful. To what can we attribute this?

Lebanon, as you well know, has had its share of suffering and civil war in the 70's, late 80's and early 90's. So I think because the Lebanese learned that internal conflict is not going to help anyone and, therefore, they learned that they have to find a way to live together in a kind of peaceful manner and trying to stay far away from the regional conflicts, especially in Syria.

But, as you well know, the confessionalism and sectarianism, the hidden animosity between Sunnis and Shia, didn't help to keep Lebanon out of those regional conflicts. And in my opinion that is because you have a fear that if the Lebanese get involved in this kind of sectarian war it is not going to profit anyone, it will be very bad for everybody and, therefore, with the help of the international nations, either in the West or in the East – that means Europe, America and Russia – Lebanon was somehow spared this kind of conflict. But we still live in a kind of very tense situation, because of the interference from outside.

Most Western countries have grown suspicious of Russia and their interference in other countries, such as in Syria or in the Ukraine. But how do Christians in Syria and other regions, in your experience, see the intervention of Russia in the civil war? Do they see the Russians as liberators or aggressors?

I think most Christians, either in or outside of Syria, see in the military intervention by Russia a kind of deliverance, not only for Christian communities but also for the whole Syrian people, of all religions and confessions, because for the first three years, at least, there was no such intervention from Russia in Syria, we had mostly Western intervention, through the regional countries, Turkey and the Gulf States, supporting, financing and arming the so called opposition – and we still remember what Obama said about that opposition, that there was no moderate opposition – but for Machiavellian interests they kept hammering Syria and calling the Government illegitimate, while we see that it is recognised by the international community and the United Nations.

Until now, the agglomerate media of the West keep hammering on Syria and want to destroy the country, pretending that the cause of all evils is Bashar al-Assad, which is not true, and therefore, Christians saw, in the Russian intervention, a kind of salvation of Syria, because already Syria was half destroyed before the intervention of the Russian army. And although Russia, of course, have their own geopolitical interests, they have been more clear and transparent in helping the Syrian government and the Syrian people, because otherwise there would have been a hecatomb and who knows when it would have ended, because the whole conflict in Syria was based on confessionalism. It is a lie, what they used to say in the West, either in France, the USA or England, that it was a kind of popular rebellion against the dictatorship.

We know that there was a dictatorship, but what kind of alternative did we have in Syria? We had the alternative of the Islamic State. And there were lies spread that the Government created the Islamic State. It is a surreal lie, but this is the agglomerate media, they can very much manipulate the public opinion.

The group of Syriac pilgrims after mass in Fátima

The Pope was just in Armenia where he once again described the massacres of Armenians as genocide. But the victims were not only Armenians, were they?

We feel very close to the Armenian brothers and sisters, the Armenian people and Church, because we have been persecuted and killed and exposed to genocide like them, 100 years ago and many times before and after that.

You well know that what used to be called Asia Minor, present day Turkey, was well populated by Christian communities, either Greek, Armenian, Syriac, Assyrian... And now we can't anymore speak about a Christian presence, it is a very, very tiny minority left.

So we are the same, we feel the same as our Armenian brothers and sisters, because we have been not only decimated, we have been exposed to genocide. We don't exist anymore in Turkey... We have 10 to 20 thousand Syriacs, especially in the South and South Eastern region of Turkey. We had existed with important numbers, churches, monasteries, villages, and they don't exist anymore.

So we are very grateful to Pope Francis for having made this trip to be close to these people. We don't have a Syriac country, we don't have the huge numbers which lobby Western nations to think about us, but we still live in hope that the time will come when the international family will be closer to us and think about our survival, because we are left as the only communities which were very close to the primitive Church. Jesus, the blessed Mother, the apostles, they didn't speak Latin or Greek, they spoke Aramaic.

And I told the bishop of Leiria and Fátima that I would like to have also that verse of the gospel engraved in the new Basilica in Aramaic/Syriac, the language of Jesus and the Blessed Mother. I told him I'd send him the text. [A glass panel by Canadian artist Kerry Joe Kelly, in the Basilica of the Most Holy Trinity, in Fátima, is engraved with four biblical sentences in about 25 languages]

So this is our destiny, rather, it is our vocation, to be real martyrs, that is, witnesses to the gospel and also to shed our blood for Jesus.

Christians in the Middle East are divided into many different churches. Does this division weaken the Christian witness and voice, or is the diversity something to be valued?

I think we have to take it both ways.

Does it weaken? Surely it weakens. Because it is very sad to recall that in those regions where a Muslim majority has the rule, numbers are very important. The kind of rights of minorities are not the same as in civilised nations. Whatever they say, the best they can do is tolerate the existence of non-Muslim minorities. Therefore, when we are, let’s say, divided into more than one church, it is not seen as a richness for the majority.

For us, we say it is a richness, because of those traditions and the patrimony which go back to early Christianity and which enriches the Universal Church and even humanity. But therefore, especially in these times when we have this kind of fanaticism – not only attributed to the majority but it is a fact that the Muslim majority rely mostly on numbers, and as you know they have the notion of the Umma, the Islamic nation, from the Far East to the Far West they are all considered one nation, and this way they can, I think, blackmail the Western civilised countries and spread fear wherever they are, because of their numbers. Besides that you have also the oil resources and now the third element is the terrorism factor, they spread that fear among the civilised world.

So, again, being various churches, would be a richness if we were living in times where every human being would be respected, no matter the numbers or religion. But these times, where the majority wants to impose itself, it is a weakness.

How do you see Europe's response to the refugee crisis?

Since the beginning we have opposed the forced emigration for people or individuals. Especially for us it is a big threat to our survival, because the ones who emigrate do not return. Therefore, for us, migration is a very dangerous phenomenon.

The way European countries have handled this kind of migration was not the right way, because they didn't look at the roots of this migration, they instigated violence in Syria for the past five years, or more, and in Iraq they kept silent about the way the US handled the Iraqi question.

There we also see manifest hypocrisy and Machiavellianism in the way the European politicians handled that question. Because until the tragic death of Aylan, the little child, back in early September, they didn't care and they could find a way to keep the Syrian refugees, around two million of them, mostly in Turkey, with a kind of agreement between European countries and Turkey.

But after that tragic death, the media did talk about it and the European countries were kind of lost, they didn't have the right policies. We don't want that kind of migration based on forced and on sectarian wars. They should have done more to bring more peace to Syria and find a way for the Government of Syria and the opposition to find the best solution for the future. But we know the immediate geopolitical interests and now they have to face that kind of hundreds of thousands of migrants and they don't know how to handle this.

Patriarch Ignatius Joseph III and
D. António Marto, bishop of Leiria-Fátima

I think this is a kind of very wrong policies they followed. And we have said, since the beginning... It's not just the Patriarch being idealistic... We have said, since the beginning, please do not compare the situation in Syria to that in Egypt and Tunisia. In Syria the situation is much more complex, because we have ethnic, religious and confessional diversity, many minorities, and we have to find a way to stop the fighting, and whatever solution would be better than instigating that conflict.

But they have their own agenda. Since the beginning we have said that and now we are harvesting the results of these policies.

In regard to Eastern Catholic Churches, some complained that the Eastern Catholics were treated almost as second class citizens, due to issues such as the authority of Patriarchs outside of their traditional homelands, ordination of married clergy abroad, etc. Are things different with Francis?

There is no doubt that things have been changed, and they have to be changed gradually in a better understanding of the nature of Eastern traditions and the authority of Patriarchs. We keep telling the Holy See that Patriarchs are the head of their Churches and as such they have the right to take care and minister to their church communities wherever they are, be it in the Middle East or in the Western countries.

I think Pope Francis understands our grief and our needs very well, especially in these times where we have been threatened in our own survival in some of the countries in the Middle East, like Syria and Iraq, and we don't have any alternative but to follow our people and to give them the spiritual and pastoral ministry they need. Surely it is not going to be easy, but we keep fighting for this goal, because we think it is quintessential for our survival.

“Before the street feared the leader, now the leader fears the street”

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with archbishop* Maroun Lahham, patriarchal-vicar for Jordan, about the situation in the Middle East, five years after the Arab Spring. His grace also speaks about conversion of Jews and whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God. The news item, in Portuguese, can be found here.

You were archbishop of Tunis at the time of the Arab Spring in Tunisia, were you not? What were your feelings at the time?

It was a big surprise for everybody. The regime of Ben Ali was so strict, nobody even dared to pronounce his name. All of a sudden there was this popular explosion and we lived it with much enthusiasm. It took almost 18 days until Ben Ali left for Saudi Arabia, and he is still there. 

Now I cannot say that Tunisia became a paradise after this, but at least one positive point is that they discovered democracy, and they live a democracy and if you have followed events in Tunisia, they have a very good Constitution, moderate, democratic, the only one in the Arab world which guarantees liberties of creed, of conscience for everybody.

Egypt went through much turmoil, but seems to have stabilized. Is democracy possible in a country like Egypt?

It is possible but it takes time.

Democracy is not a gift, you have to acquire it. 

The Tunisian people are much better educated than the Egyptian and certainly than the Lybians. I think that democracy might work in Syria, if things settle down in Syria. In Egypt I think they still need a hard hand, but even in Egypt, some sense of democracy exists. For instance, Mubarak left, but when the Muslim Brothers took power they were expelled by the people, which is a sign of democracy. 

So something positive occurred, even in Egypt, even though they have not reached a Democracy like they have in Tunisia.

And then, of course, we have Syria… Can you foresee an end to the war there?

Yes. I am optimistic by nature and also by faith. So I think that an end will come, but that depends also, and especially, on the Super powers, because in politics there are no values or ethics, there is only interests, so the USA has interests in Syria, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran. When these superpowers reach a solution, I hope...

Because the Syrian people are tired, Daesh is on the defensive, I think that a superpower would give a mortal coup to Daesh the moment they feel a threat in their own countries. You see the reaction of France after the bombings of the 13th of November, I hope not, but I think it could happen in Germany, England and France. I hope not in Portugal... But that will force them to act, because they fire will have come to their home.

The situation in Syria has made many more people aware of the split between Sunni and Shia. Is this the real conflict in the Middle East, more than a division between Islam and the West?
No. The real problem is not there. 

The real problem is that the superpowers do not want any Arab country to become strong and to have an effective role in the politics of the Middle East. 

In each Arab country there is a sensitive point you can't touch. In Syria its Sunni and Shiite. In other places its Christian against Muslim. In other places, palestinians and Jordanians. So this is the week point. The superpowers try to touch in order to create problems.

Sunnis and Shia lived together peacefully for centuries in Syria, in Iraq. They never reached the point of killing each other. It all depends on the big players. 

Jordan plays an important role in the refugee crisis, with close to 700 thousand refugees or asylum seekers. How difficult is the situation?

It is a real problem. The Jordanian population is up to 9 million people. Six million are Jordanians and three million are refugees. So imagine 30% of your population are refugees? 

First this is a human problem, second it is a social problem and third it is a moral problem.

A human problem because you are dealing with people who have lost everything, who suffered, who were persecuted for their political options or their creed, or their faith. So we have to work on that.

A social problem, because we have at least 1.5 million Syrians in Jordan. They are not allowed to work, but they work in the black market. And problem is that Syrians are much more practical at manual work than Jordanians, and though they are jobless, they accept to be paid much less than Jordanians. So they work better and they are paid less, this is very good for a business man. So that makes a social problem, with Jordanians who feel that their jobs are lost and stolen by Syrians.

Finally there is also a moral problem, because some of the Syrian families, pushed by poverty, accept to mary - I don't want to say sell - their young girls, 14 years old, to some millionaire of the Emirates for a hundred dollars for three months, so you imagine the trauma for the girl and the mother. This never occurred before in Jordan. And to talk about "closed houses" [brothels], these things never existed in Jordan, now with the arrival of Syrians we have many of these. We are not used to this but the human nature is what it is.

In Europe the influx of refugees has caused many debates and disagreements. What is your view, as a Christian from the Middle East? What message for the Europeans?

The message is the message proclaimed always by Pope Francis. We have to welcome people.

I understand, if I put myself on the side of the European countries, especially after what happened in Germany, in Cologne on new years, we have to be cautious. But if 95% are really poor people who need to work and to have a better future, it is enough to have 2% of infiltrators to cause problems, and that leaves you scandalized and shocked, and say who can oblige me to take people in where there is a percentage, even if a little one, of fanatics who come with ideological thoughts and choices. 

I understand both positions, but from a Human point of view I think we have to check who is coming in, but we can't close our borders.  

This crisis has earlier roots, but became much more serious after the so-called Arab Spring. Five years after the first signs of these revolutions, what do you make of them?

Initially the Arab Spring started very well. As you said, there is stability in Tunisia and Egypt. But when it arrived in Lybia, that was the end of the World, because Khadaffi never formed a state or a people, so there are tribes fighting each other and ruled them by force, while in Tunisia they were educated. 

I think one positive point of the Arab Spring, in all these countries, is that the street no longer fears the governments. Whereas before if the King or the President said 2+2 is 10, you say 10, if not 11. Now its the leaders who fear the street, and this is a positive point. 

Now democracy is also a process that may take one or two generations. But one thing is sure, Syria will not return to what it was before, nor will Iraq, or Egypt, nor Lybia, although Lybia may be the last to stabilise.

We know that conversion of Muslims to Christianity is a very difficult subject in the Middle East, and other Muslim countries. As Patriarchal-Vicar for Jordan, how do you deal with issues like this?

We are very cautious, first of all, to be sure of the good intentions of the people who come and say that they want to convert. Because sometimes they may be sent by security people to test our good will. That is why I told my priests, if any Muslim comes to you, saying that he wants to convert, you send him to the bishop and I will have the first conversation with him. Many of them, when they hear the name of the bishop, don't come anymore. 

Others come. So the first thing they do is ask some questions and I put before them the difficulties they will face if they become Christians, socially, as a family, in terms of religion, for the marriage, for the children who must be always Muslims. Some of them when they hear all of these dangers, they cease, and don't come anymore. 

Others continue, and when they continue and we are sure of their good intentions, I tell one priest or another to start with them a process of Cathechesis, which can take one or two years. Then I always tell them that if they want to be baptized and you want to stay in Jordan you have to live your faith as the early Christians, hidden. 

Others seek a visa for Germany or other European countries and go there, where they are free to practice. Others, if there are problems to be baptized in Jordan, we send them to Lebanon, where they are more free.

So it is not easy, but the principle is that you cannot say no to somebody who is sincere.

So there are people in Jordan at the moment living their faith in secret?

Yes.

In Tunisia, on the other hand, there is complete freedom to convert. But Tunisia and Algeria are the only countries where there is no problem for a Muslim, except from his family, but according to the Constitution he is free to convert.

Recently two issues have been widely debated. First, the issue of whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God. As a Christian who has lived all his life in Muslim dominated lands, what is your opinion on this?

Yes, it is the same God. In our liturgy we use Allah as well. It is a another way of seeing God, we see him as a family, as a trinity, while they see him as one, but basically it is the same. I am with Pope Francis.

Syrian refugees in Jordan

Also, the Pope’s recent visit to the Synagogue in Rome raised once more the issue of whether Christians should try to convert Jews or whether they already have a salvific covenant with God, and therefore there should not be specific missions to the Jews. What is your opinion, and what is the standard practice of the Latin Patriarchate in Jerusalem?

Firstly, we do not try to evangelize the Jews in Israel, it is very hard. Jesus himself tried, and he failed. Unless we evangelize by our witness, by our life.

Secondly, this famous document which was published on the 50th anniversary of Nostra Aetate, yes, they repeat more than 100 times that the covenant of God is irrevocable. The mere fact that they repeat it over 100 times means that they don't believe it.

When you have to insist on something so many times, there is something wrong. I understand that the west wants to repair the bad history with the Jews, but you cannot use the Bible as an instrument for political or historical issues.

If you go to the Bible, sure there is this sentence, but there are others which say the opposite.

It is a kind of Western theology, based on historical events and political events and psychological complexes, while theology, to be a true theology must be free, like the Holy Spirit, from any pressure here and there. So for me this is not really theology.

*His grace was previously archbishop of Tunis, and retains the references of archbishop.  

"When I got home, my cassock was covered in blood"

This is a full transcript of my interview with bishop George Dodo, of Zaria, in northern Nigeria. The bishop speaks of life under the threat of Boko Haram, how he survived an attempt on his life in 2012 and also about the problem of polygamy in Nigeria. The news story, in Portuguese, can be read here.

Your diocese is one of the ones which suffers with the rebellion caused by Boko Haram. Geographically, where is it situated?

It is situated in the North. If you are familiar with Kaduna, which was the headquarters of the Northern Region, when the British colonized Nigeria, and is now the state capital of Kaduna State. Zaria is a little bit North of Kaduna.

Being in the North, the majority of the population is Muslim?

Yes.

Are most of the Christians originally from there, or mostly from the South?

It is a little bit cosmopolitan. While Muslims had the majority in the North, Kaduna, in particular , is the home of almost everybody in Nigeria, it is a smaller cosmopolitan city.

How exactly have the actions of Boko Haram affected your daily life and that of your faithful?

In terms of security, some people have had to relocate, so there is emigration out of the state, from Zaria in particular to places which are considered safer. This was noted especially in the last quarter of last year, up to when the elections were conducted last year until the elections were conducted on the 29th of May. At that time the fear of the unknown, in terms of the state of insecurity, followed by the kind of statements which came from the supporters of the present ruling party, with such utterances as "If Buhari doesn't win we will make sure we slaughter all of you", and considering what had happened in the past, a lot of people from the Southern part of the country thought it was better for them to go to where they feel safe.

At that time, I think practically every church worshipping community lost about 50% of its members. That is one aspect.

The economic life of the people has also been affected, because the people can no longer sell their goods, it means economically it is affecting the social life. Whereas people would sometimes go out in the evenings to relax, there have been instances where in the course of relaxation a bomb explosion goes off and lives are lost, so that has also affected the social life of the people.

In terms of education, a lot of schools barely managed to survive, because in tertiary institutions students felt it was better for them to remain where they feel safe, in the elementary, primary and secondary levels of education, parents would withdraw their children and take them to where they felt they were safer, so that has also had its own affects on the people.

In terms of worship, when it is time for worship, especially on Fridays and Sundays - Fridays for Muslims, Sundays for Christians - you have to have a security presence and while you are worshipping there is security outside, just to make sure nothing ugly happens. This has had a serious adverse affect on the generality of life in the Northern part of the country.

You mentioned "ugly things" happening... You had a very close experience with that yourself...

Yes I did.

It happened on a Sunday morning, 17th of June, 2012, the eve of my ordination anniversary. I was actually celebrating the second mass of the day, we started at 8h and somewhere around 8h30 or 8h45 we heard a very unusual sound, "boom", and the whole church was thrown into darkness. You could only feel electrical fittings from the ceiling falling down on us.

I think I must have blacked out at the time, so when I regained consciousness, all the alter servers were around me, asking me if I was ok. It was then that I became conscious again and said that I was ok. They said that it was not safe for me there, and that it was better for me to go out.

The sound was from a bomb explosion. When the dust that had been raised as a result of the explosion finally settled I could see through the windows that there were flames rising up to the roof of the building, and of course thick smoke. Then I heard parishioners saying "suicide bombers, suicide bombers".

What happened was that the suicide bomber had actually come in a car, heavily loaded with explosives. We had trained some of our young people to make sure that whoever was coming to these places of worship were properly screened. So they wanted to inspect the car, but the man said no, that he had an urgent message for the priest in the cathedral. So they said "ok, we don't dispute that, but nobody goes in here without us checking".

So I want to believe that the bomb must have been timed and he realised that he was wasting time, so he made as if he was reversing - even though he pretended to be a learner, with a capital L hanging on the car front and back - and then he came back at full speed, thinking he would just knock the gate off and get into the cathedral. But unfortunately for him that didn't happen, because the gate was solid, and the pillar on which it was hanging was very solid. So he hit the pillar and the explosives went off there and then.

I was reluctant to go out until I was dragged, and was trying to reach the commissioner of the police, but the number wasn't working. I was trying to reach the Governor, but the number wasn't working, I tried to reach some other security people but the numbers weren't working, until one parishioner, who happened to be working with the state security services introduced himself, he said bishop, this place is not safe for you, I am a security man, come, let’s go, I will go to my office and report what's happened.

So they dragged me out and then people came and told me there are dead bodies of our young boys, so I couldn't reach the place immediately, because of the fire, so only when everything started subsiding did I go and there were three of our young worshippers lying down, who were actually trying to check the vehicle.

So by the time one of the boys realised, and shouted "suicide bomber, everybody lie down", the bomb had exploded. These were the ones who died immediately.

At the end of the day, that very day, there were 13 dead bodies taken from the place. The motorcyclists who do that for commercial purposes, we tried to beg them to help us evacuate the wounded, to take them to the hospital, but they wouldn't even help. Instead they were sitting on their motorbikes, hands folded, and laughing. So it looks like they knew what was going on and were happy with what had happened and I was made to understand that in some parts of the town some of the supporters of the terrorists had gone into celebration because they had succeeded in reducing our number, including the big shot among them, who was inside the church. But unfortunately, when they started hearing my voice again, on the electronic media who were interviewing me, they knew that I was not dead, and so there was nothing for them to celebrate.

From this story you are telling me I get that this is not only a problem with some extremist elements like Boko Haram who are targeting Christians; there is a more general problem between the Christian minority and the Muslim majority. It may not be everyone, but there seems to be some members of the Muslim population who as you say were rejoicing with these acts.

Yes. Those who are not happy with the presence of Christianity, possibly they would celebrate in that sort of a situation. And you know, because of the frequency of the eruption of violent crises, in the Northern part of Nigeria, the sense of mutual trust between the Christians and the Muslims, which we had when we were growing up has more or less been destroyed.

Because when that happened, another church which is very close to the house where I was living, which is a Protestant church, was bombed within an interval of five minutes, and then in the city of Kaduna another Pentecostal church was bombed. So the youths, when they heard what had happened in Zaria, with the information that I had been killed, just went on a rampage.

You mean the Christian youth...

Yes.

So there was revenge.

It was a reprisal attack.

When you hear about these reprisal attacks, and there have been others, what do you say to your faithful?

We try to teach our people not to go on revenge missions. We understand life is sacred, at all costs. Even on the day we were bombed I was trying to save lives. When I got back to my house my cassock was soaked in blood. One young boy, I don't know where he came from, but he happened to be a Muslim, as soon as people saw him coming out of the Church they stormed at him. I said no, the most you can do is hand him over to the security, so I embraced him, trying to shield him and protect him, but because of the sort of beatings and stones used on him, he sustained some injuries and was bleeding. That is how my cassock was stained in blood.

Then I left again, because some people were already weeping because they had heard that I was dead. The security came and dragged me, saying that they could not control the crowd. I told them to let me go so that they could see my face, so that they would know that I was fully alive. So I left the boy in the hands of some young people and I showed him the security van was there, and I went to show my face to the people who were mourning and wanting to go on rampage, but I said "No. Just keep your calm, I am alive".

When they saw the blood they supposed I had been seriously injured, but I said "No, its not my blood. Its the blood of a young man I was trying to save. Now that you have seen my face, please listen to instructions from the security people, on the preventative measures you have to take in a situation like this. Because you never can tell."

I later realised that there were some individuals who had also come with explosives, but unfortunately for them they were identified. What happened is left to be imagined, because in that kind of a situation, emotions usually take the place of common sense and reason.

Your grace, this was in 2012, since then there has been a concerted effort with neighbouring countries to try and wipe out the threat of Boko Haram. It has been presented by the government as working, and being successful, do you agree? Has the situation improved on the ground?

I think to a certain extent I would need to congratulate the government, because they have been able to demystify the mind-set of the Boko Haram people. Initially, when this started, it was like they were invisible human beings. It was not until concerted efforts began to yield good results and they started arresting some of them, who in the course of interrogation would also reveal certain information to the security people. So it was at that level that demystifying the belief that they were invisible people began to take place.

Now the present government has been able even to go into the forest, which has been their major hideout, or enclave, where they sit, plan and go out to execute. And possibly, whoever has been there suppliers and financiers, the ammunition that they use and the resources they use to pay themselves and others to go into destructive mentalities. That was a no-go area, but thanks be to God, with the present government, and I want to believe, that the previous government which was replaced on May 29th started making the moves and advancing money for the supply of modern weaponry, now some of those things have started arriving and that has allowed the Nigerian military to really hit the Boko Haram people hard.

They are able to get into the forest and kill some of them, and some of them scatter. They have been able to recover many of the towns and suburban areas which had been under their control. So that shows that there is some success being achieved in the war against the insurgency.

Recently a Nigerian bishop floated the idea of an amnesty for fighters, to try and draw out those who are not convinced by the ideology and weaken Boko Haram. Do you agree with this approach?

Forgiveness is God's grace, or divine gift, and especially beneficial for those who realise their actions probably are misguided and have very deep regrets for whatever they have done in the past. And deep down in them there is this resolution never to allow the past to repeat itself, either in the present or in the future. Whenever these people are identified and you can see this kind of remorse in them, I wouldn't say no to that.

But to grant amnesty people have to make themselves identifiable. Then you know who you are talking to. But for an enemy whose face you do not know, how can you talk about amnesty?

It is when you see the face, and you are able to talk face to face, that you are able to see, from the body language, and movement, and gestures, whether this person really deserves this amnesty you are talking about. I know that in Nigeria some people have tried to equate the request for amnesty for Boko Haram with what happened with the militants in the Niger Delta. Destruction of human life is destruction of human life. But the scenario, I think, is a bit different. With the Niger delta militants, you are dealing with people you know. You know their faces, you can call their name, you know where they come from, you know who their parents are, and you can sit around a table with them. That is a different scenario compared to Boko Haram, whose faces you do not know, you don't know who is their mastermind, who is their leader, except video clips you can find on the internet. Apart from the face of Shekau, who has always been in the newspapers, who else, can somebody confidently say is a Boko Haram person?

That is why at the beginning I said they are a kind of invisible people. So if you want to talk about amnesty, which will be the fruits of an initiative towards dialogue, dialogue to be able to understand and then to find a common path, that will lead to a resolution. If you don't have that kind of person, how can you talk about amnesty?

I'd like to ask a couple of questions, changing topic, about the Synod for the family. We hear a lot about polygamy as a specifically African problem, is this a case in Nigeria?

There are two categories of polygamists. One category is those who embraced Christianity after they were already in polygamous marriages, but normally the stance of the Church will have been explained to them, and many of them understood it and, because they really wanted the sacrament, discussed it amongst themselves, the husband and the number of wives he has and once they reach that conclusion that they are all eyeing for heaven, and if this will stop us accepting this other way, then you choose whatever you wish. To have your marriage blessed in the church, we will stay for the sake of our children, no marital relations between us again, we are staying. And whatever the husband is able to contribute he does. There are situations where the husband still gives something for the upkeep, and they are happy with themselves.

Then there are those who I call deliberate polygamists. They are the ones who have been in the Church even a long time before they got married, then, for reasons best know to them, one of which would be that because my wife has only given birth to female children, and in my own culture my house is not complete unless I have a male child to inherit whatever I leave behind and carry on my family name, that has forced some people to go into a second marriage, to become polygamists, and that keeps them from the sacraments.

But there are those who accept that, whether it is a male or female child, a child is a precious gift from God, and there is no amount of money in this world which can buy one. So they find themselves in this situation, they are kept away from the sacraments, it is a free choice, but an unfortunate one.

But it is not something commonplace, no. So the people I really have sympathy for would be people who were polygamous before Christianity met them, and they have that difficulty, because you find some where the husband says that if that is what the Church wants, and I know in conscience that I have never had any quarrel with any of these women, none of them has offended me, and I have offended none of them, how can I just tell them to go?

Instead of offending their conscience and telling somebody to go, they will simply remain like that. I would hope that one day the Holy Spirit will reveal something to the church to handle these cases of polygamy. But for those who know what it is, and on the day they married their first wives knew the commitment they were getting into, just for social and cultural reasons, now say they are going to break that commitment, there is something wrong somewhere along the line.

How many generations back did your family embrace Christianity?

My father became a Christian when he was a young adult, so in my own village he is the first generation of Christians.

Bishop Dodo visited Portugal at the invitation of the local branch of Aid to the Church in Need.