"We will be the salt and the light of the Arab World"

This is a full transcript, in English, of my interview with Patriarch Gregorios III Laham, of the Melkite Church. His Beatitude speaks of the situation of Christians in the Middle East but also about particularities of the Eastern Catholic Churches, such as ordination of married men outside of the ancestral territories of the Patriarchates, etc. The news report can be seen here, in Portuguese, but is accompanied by a video which is in English, subtitled in Portuguese. The interview was conducted in English, some of the Patriarch's answers were edited for clarity, but always respecting his meaning. 

Transcrição integral, no inglês original, da entrevista ao Patriarca Gregório III, da Igreja Melquita. A notícia encontra-se aqui. 

You are in Portugal to speak about the situation of the Christians in Iraq and Syria. What will you be telling your audiences?

First, we are very thankful that you are so aware in Portugal and elsewhere about this situation, especially of the Christians as part of society in Syria. We are especially thankful to Aid to the Church in Need.

The events in Iraq in June, with the expulsion of about 120.000 Christians, and also some Yezidis from Mosul and Nineveh, were a shock for the whole Middle East. It had a great impact in Syria, because the Syrians were more optimistic, the situation was better, the government was doing well, the army was having more successes, but with this shock of Iraq the people were disappointed, skeptical, pessimistic, and more and more people are leaving today, because they are afraid that something similar will happen to them. 

Currently the main places of fear are near the border with Turkey, near Aleppo, in the North... Aleppo is a real prison, it has been for months. Several times without water, without electricity, and sometimes without food. But they are very courageous, and very united, the bishops and the people, but many left, especially the rich people who could help others. And many factories have been destroyed...

Damascus is less dangerous, it is the capital. We hear bombs and planes attacking, but more from the government against these mercenaries and bandits and groups. There are about 2000 groups working in Syria, fighting in Syria, against the government.

People say it is a civil war, but I can't say it is a civil war. Civil war means different factions of the country fighting each other. Here you have a government and mercenaries and groups from inside, from outside, fighting, attacking, kidnapping, and so on. It is not a civil war, it is not even a real revolution. It is a crisis, which is bigger because of the influence and invasion of other groups from outside. 

Daily we hear that people from Holland, Britain, Germany, are going to Syria. It is against human and natural law to go from Holland to fight against me in Syria, or to destroy my house. It's not like the first or the second world wars, not even like the war in Lebanon, there it was a real civil war, here it is all militias, militias, militias. 

The chaos is the biggest danger today. You don't know. Every place is safe in Syria and every place is dangerous.

Here in the West we see Christians being persecuted. Many people want to help. But what can they do?

First of all, really, if we had a consensus with the Arab world and Europe, to stop the war, this is the best help, because even with the huge humanitarian help by international organizations, the churches, Catholic and others, in spite of that, we can't cope with all the needs of our people. 

Daily we have more people needing help. For example, in my Patriarchate in Damascus we started a small community for about 300 families. Now we have 8000, and everyday more and more.

Children are dying, there are no schools, little food, now the winter, medicine, operations, handicapped people, kidnapped people and ransoms. Daily we have huge numbers and different sorts of tragedies and needs.

We have had lots of help, from the Vatican, Aid to the Church in Need, the Holy Father, Congregation for the Eastern Churches, Cor Unum, Ouvre d'Orient, Caritas, they are helping a lot, as well as our international friends. It is a lot of help, but we are not able to cope with the needs of the people. 

The second is really to stop the traffic of weapons. Pope Francis said that the biggest problem today is weapon trafficking... In Europe there are economic problems, and the weapons business and the war are ways of improving the economy in Europe and America.

For me, as a priest, as a bishop – very independent, very free, and with no tension or influences – we don't need these wars in the Middle East to change. We can change without that. The Islamic world was changing already before ISIS and so on, in general you could see development in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, without these wars and crises... we don't need it.

It is really an awful war and Europe is responsible for that, with the USA and with Russia. All together. I am sure that if one day the interests of Russia and America coincide we will have peace. As long as they don't realize how to do that, we will continue to have war. It is not ISIS... sure they have influence, but the real problem is somewhere else.

Assad warned that a change of regime would open the doors to radical Islam. Is the regime vital to coexistence?

The situation in Syria, the conditions of life together, coexistence, freedom of religion and of worship, churches, schools, development of industry and so on, is not only the result of the regime or the Ba'ath party. 

The party did a lot for the development of the country, but this coexistence, this freedom, is not a result of this party, which was founded by a Christian. It is an ancient tradition. In the time of the Ottomans, the best place to live, for Christians, was Syria and Lebanon, called Sham. These were countries where Christians could live. 

When you go out to other Arab countries, like the Emirates, the Gulf states, it is another Arabic Islamic situation. But the place where Christians used to live in security, in freedom and coexistence, cordiality, together, flourishing and respected, are these countries. So I wonder, what can these movements bring us more? I don't know. 

If there is an alternative, what is it? Who can bring me, as a Christian, as a Muslim, as Druze, as Shiite, more than I have now in terms of living together, peaceful coexistence of churches and mosques, living together in different quarters, with Christian business men having more Muslim employees than Christians... It is wonderful. I like to tell the Western countries, we live together better than in some countries in Europe. 

Many Christians were taken up by the pan-Arab nationalist movements in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Has that dream died?

Well, it is in great danger. Not because of Islamism, these movements are instruments for something else. For me the biggest danger and the biggest problem and cause of this instability in the Middle East is the failure by Europe and the Arab world to solve the conflict between Palestine and Israel.

Iraqi Christian refugees in Erbil

I served for 26 years as bishop in Jerusalem, before becoming Patriarch. I can tell you that all the problems in these countries are related to the problem in Israel and Palestine. As long as there is no solution it means this conflict will be an excuse for many countries, including Arab countries, to dominate their people, not to do what they have to do, and not to liberate and give freedom and development. They spend a lot of money on weapons, but for nothing. The greatest interest is for Israel. 

Security for Israel? I am ok with that. But also security for Palestinians. The security of Israel is more in the hands of the Palestinians than in the hands of Europe and America, because as we say in Arabic, your neighbor is more important than your own house.

The Holy Father Pope Francis, when he came to Jordan in May, said there are two keys to peace in the Middle East and the world. First, a real political and diplomatic, comprehensive, consensus solution for the crisis in Syria.

Second, justice for Palestine. These two things have to be considered in all policies. But they are not considered.

The European Union is 50 years old. I told them, look, you have 50 years of peaceful coexistence. Please help Arabs, don't divide Arabs. Help us to be united. It is better humanity, for development, for young generations and also for peace for you. 

If we solve the Palestinian Israeli conflict we will have less aggressive Islam in Europe. We will have better Islam in Europe, they can be better integrated, there will be more understanding and more dialogue. The danger for you is bigger than the danger for us. Islam in Europe will be more dangerous than in our lands, because we have a long experience of living together, we will be successful, we will live after this crisis. So for the sake of Europe and the Islamic presence in Europe, you need to help solve the problem.

Holland is now willing to recognize the State of Palestine. I asked the Holy Father, when I was with him on the 20th of October in Rome, I said please, be the first state, not the last, to recognize Palestine and you will help Christians and Muslims alike, and Jews also. 

The salvation, the security of the Jews are in our hands and not in the hands others. 

There has been more and more talk of creating a safe-haven for Christians in the Middle East, do you think the time has come for this?

Never! Never. Never. It was maybe a temptation in the past centuries, but no more. 

When Israel defined itself as a Jewish state, there were no protests, which is a pity. I am ok with the existence of Israel, but Jewish state? What for? Where am I as a Christian, or as a Druze, as a Palestinan Muslim... What is the difference between a Jewish state and Shari'a? Jewish state means the law of the Jewish religion. 

After the creation of a Jewish state some want to have an Alawite state, a shiite state, a Druze state, a Kurdish state, and so on and so on, what is the future? Nothing. 

We can't live separated! We have a history of living together. I told my people, we will not have our state, we will be in all states and being, in these states, salt and light. This is the future. Christians cannot live alone. We don't have a ghetto spirit. We have to avoid the ghetto spirit. To be put in a corner, or like a resort to save animals or plants... We are the cradle of Christianity, the birthplace of Christianity, we don't need a state.

I wrote a letter to my people and I quoted the letter to Diognetus, which is well known. I told my people, this is the answer to you. Already in the second century this was it.

The Holy Father said, in Evangeli Gaudium, that people think that the problems of today are worse and more difficult than the problems in the first century. It is not true, it is the opposite! For 300 years we had no rights, it was pagan, now we have churches, schools, congregations, we have processions, we have everything. We were able to overcome then, why not today? We have to give hope to our people, because the danger is so big, they are leaving. They are in great fear.

As pastors we have to be very strong and near to our people. We thank the Lord that all patriarchs and bishops are very near to their people.

Christian leaders have always been against the creation of armed militias for the Christian communities, but since the purge of Mosul and other Christian areas, many have defended the legitimacy of an armed response. What is your opinion?

We are not able be armed and we don't like to be armed. 

I said in 2012, in a letter, we were not asked to be armed, in Syria, we are not asking to be armed and we don't like to be armed. Now, it is different to say that in some places we need to have self defense possibility. Not to attack, not militia. Militia is not for Christians. Lebanon used that approach and it was a very, very bad experience. We don't need that, we are different. The Arabic world needs us like this, and not like militias.

We have to convince our people not to take up arms. We have to see other solutions. So I am asking the whole world, why, after years and centuries, are we always solving problems with war? Why not think of something else? In the XXI century the states are only thinking of more and more weapons. The church has to change minds in the states and not to see everything in terms of weapons and militias. This is not the answer, not for the future.

We had 1400 years with Islam without weapons, why not continue without weapons?

But many middle Eastern Christians reject the idea that they are Arabs, and claim to be Assyrians, how do you react to that?

Who is Arab? Where is the pure Arabic blood? Many Muslims were Christians, Assyrians, Greek Catholic, and so on. Many admit this, that they were Christians. Until the XIII century the majority of the Middle East was Christian. How did they become Muslim? Over time.

Being Arabic is something difficult to define. There are different linguistic or geographic groups. It is a mixture of different groups. You can't differentiate. I am Greek Catholic, because of the Greek language, but I am Syrian, just like the Assyrians, because it was the invasion of the Greek language and all the Middle East was speaking Greek in the cities. Even the founders of the Syriac church did not speak Syriac. They are called Syriac Fathers, but they spoke Greek. 

So the difference between Arabs and non-Arabs, Assyrians, Syrians, Chaldeans... The same country has different languages, or similar languages.

What is Assyrian? Assyrian, Syrian, Chaldean, Hebrew, Cananean, Philistines... These people are closer to each other than Europeans, because our languages are closer to each other than European. 

I am happy that we have many rites. Coptic, Syrian, Armenian... We have more pluralism than Europe. I say keep your tradition! Think in Arabic, but think also in Coptic, Greek, Armenian, Syrian, Assyrian, Chaldean... How beautiful!

Before the war we had one million Iraqis and they were singing and praying in our churches in Chaldean, it was so beautiful to hear them! In Maaloula Muslims speak Aramaic, just like the Christians. So this distinction between Arabs and non-Arabs... We are in the Arab World. We are Kurds, Druze, Shiite, Christian…

The "arabity" is a Christian trait. We brought that. Some people say, keep your Christians to keep your "arabity", because if there are no more Christians in the Middle East, only Muslims, they will call themselves Muslims, not Arabs. Even though the Koran is in Arabic, they will say we are Muslim. Arabic is the language, but the nation is Islam. 

So in order to keep a real Arab world, an Arab spring, even, we have to keep Christians there. Not only are we interested in staying, you are interested in us staying. This is a real mission.

That is why I said in my letter to other Christians, it is not the time to be only afraid. There are reasons to be afraid, but it is also time to see where is our mission? I like to tell Christians in Europe, never speak of our presence without speaking about our role and our mission. A presence without a role is nothing, a role without a presence is nothing, therefore we have to think about the Christian presence and the Christian role, and in the very beautiful words of Saint John Paul II, the essence of the human being is to be with and for. I am with the Arab World, but I am for the Arab World, that they may have life, and life in abundance. 

How wonderful is this mission? The essence is to be with, but also for. That is the whole sense of this awareness of the world about Christians, not for themselves, to be present, but to be more, to bring the light of the Gospel, the joy of the Gospel, the values of the Gospel in the world. 

There are many different Christian churches in the Middle East, each with its own Patriarch, liturgy, traditions, language… The feeling is that Christians do not speak as one community and with one voice. Is this a problem, and how can it be overcome?
Because of dogmas, sometimes we have some problems. But for the pastoral, for the social presence, for the works and so on, we are one, especially today. We thank the Lord that we have a wonderful set of Patriarchs today, very united, and we had, since June of this year, many meetings together, all Patriarchs, not just Catholics. We went together to Arbil, to visit the refugees of our brothers, the Iraqis, Yezidis, Christians and Muslims. And we went together to Washington where we had a meeting with Obama, for 40 minutes, all together, and we have many declarations, thank the Lord, with one voice. We are very grateful for that and we want the World to hear our voice. One of the means to realize peace in the Middle East is to hear the voice of the churches. 

We don't have interests, no money, nothing, no militias, we are really, in favour of our countries, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon... We are not servants of a regime, no, no, no! We are strongly together, to bring peace.

I sent a letter to the Holy Father and also to the Bishop's conferences in the world. Giving a little paper and asking them, can we make a paper and give it to the Orthodox, the Anglicans, Lutherans and together having one paper for peace in the Middle East... This is a very beautiful and unique chance for the Church to be peacemaker, and that means real power for the Christians in the Middle East, good for dialog to continue in the Middle East and also in Europe. It is a great chance and I hope it will work. We were together with the Holy Father on the 21st and he said Yes, I hope they will do that, to have one document, one word of the whole world towards peace in the Middle East.

Were you satisfied with the results of the Synod for Middle Eastern bishops?

It was really an act of providence. Just before the crisis in the Middle East we had this wonderful chance to join together, Catholic bishops, but also the Orthodox, who were represented, Muslims and Jews... It was providential of Benedict XVI to have this synod, giving a plan for the Christians to be strong and to remain at home. What we need today we have in this document, to remain in our places, and all problems we need to speak about are in this document. 

We are very, very happy, and it is providence that this happened just before the start of the Arab Spring and the troubles.

Two of the only things the synod fathers requested, permission to ordain married men in diaspora communities and direct authority over your communities, were denied...

In November last year we had a meeting with the Pope for 4 hours. All Patriarchs of the Eastern Churches, and also the Archbishop-majors, and we spoke of these problems. One result is that today it is ok to ordain married men in America, and not only, in Europe, slowly, because we don't have these huge communities, but it is possible also.

This is official?

Yes, yes, official. With some indications to be discrete, because we have to go slowly, but it is ok. 

As for the authority of the Patriarchs outside, it is not so much as we wished. But it is up to us to organize ourselves. If we have more relations with the Latin Church in the countries where we have people, we can reach more with relations than with Canon Law, or with rules. And I think through the war now, and the crisis in the Middle East, I think there is more and more sensitivity towards us, and this is very important. 

Some Eastern Rite Catholics complain about the restrictions and say that they feel like second class catholics. Do you ever feel that way?

No. We had this experience of the synods and I attended many. There are feelings of family and respect. They are happy to hear us. We have more and more communication with them... I don't think that.

We do have better relations with the Cardinals and bishops outside the Curia. The Curia is very legalistic. We have better friendship with the Church outside the circle of the Roman Latin Church. It is different, you know, the Latins in Rome are one thing and the Latins outside Rome are something else. But it is the Church.

Pope Francis was the ordinary for the Greek-Catholic Communities in Argentina, do you expect a better understanding from him?

Well, this meeting in November last year, was a sign of that, and the same with the consistory on the 21st. He is always praying for Syria and for the Middle East.

We can't forget the prayer for Syria in September 7th last year. For 5 hours we were praying and we avoided the attack against Syria. The warships were on the coast with Syria. But there was no aggression, and Syria became a member of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, it was a change.

I think he is very sensitive. In Argentina he was in touch with all communities, Catholic, Orthodox, and also Muslims and Jews. And he grew up in a very plural society and therefore he brought such a beautiful change and a new outlook for the Vatican. 

There is a tradition among Melkites of refusing to be made cardinals...

Yes, it is very rare. One Patriarch became Cardinal in the XIV or XVI century. But in the modern times, only Maximos IV, who was forced to accept as a sign of reverence. But for my predecessor Maximos V and for myself it is not a question. 

This is a Roman thing, not Oriental. We are more than cardinals, not by rank, but by jurisdiction. I am the Pope of my church. 

I like to say, jokingly, that as a Patriarch I am a big archbishop and a little Pope. In many things, unless there are problems, I can rule and serve my church without any reference to Rome. 

Respecting the tradition of the Eastern churches is a mission for us. Because we are the voice of the Orthodox inside all the jurisdiction and meetings of the Catholic Church. We are the presence of the absentee. If something is related to the Orthodox, we are there. We are immediately giving the point of view of the Orthodox and Eastern churches, and that is a big service that we provide.

Fifty years ago [Ecumenical Patriarch] Athenagoras met my predecessor Maximos IV. Maximos said to Athenagoras, “I was speaking always thinking of you”. And Athenegoras answered, “You were speaking on my behalf”. That is why we are so very faithful to our tradition, because it is the tradition of the Church. As John Paul II said in Orientale Lumen, a beautiful document, the Eastern Churches are churches, the same level as the Latin Church. It is not a special Church, it is the Church of God, the same, in the Middle East, in the Eastern as well as in the Western Church.

If somebody asked you if they should go and fight with the Kurds against the Islamic State, what would you respond?

Let us be ourselves and let Syria and Iraq solve the problems by ourselves. We used to be together for many years. Let the little people work together, and as I said, don't divide the Arab world. 

The people who fight are motivated by money and lack of sense of life. I don't think the jihadists coming from Britain, from Germany or Sweden are really willing to be jihadists or to be Muslim, they have no sense of life and they find adventure. 

Therefore I am really not afraid of them, and I would like to invite the European Union and the Western world to work for better Islamic united world, a united Arabic world, and you will have peace in your country. Peace in our countries is peace for Europe. We are one. We cannot forget the Mediterranean... it is our water. We need a good future for peace in our countries. No war! As Paul VI said. And let the little people work together.

You are interfering because you are powerful and you have weapons. You have to change your mind and do something else. Christianity is always a new look, the World today needs a new look. Not only wars and weapons and so on. We have to think of something new.

We had a bad experience of wars for centuries in the Middle East. The Gospel is a new look over the world. We hope that we can bring more light to our world.

“Cristãos serão o sal e a luz do mundo árabe”

"There is a place for arming Christians to defend themselves"

Manifestação a favor da criação
de um território para os assírios

Mardean Isaac defends the creation of a semi-autonomous homeland for the Assyrians in Iraq. This is the full transcript of the second part of an interview. The first part, about who the Assyrians are, is here. The news piece, in Portuguese, can be found here.

Mardean Isaac defende a criação de um território semi-autónomo para os Assírios, no Iraque. Esta é uma transcrição completa da segunda parte de uma entrevista. A primeira parte, sobre quem são os assírios, está aqui. A reportagem encontra-se aqui.

There were demonstrations today [Saturday, August 1st] all over the world. How many people took part? What is it you are asking for in these demonstrations?

Demonstrations took place in around 30 cities, in around 10 to 12 countries. In terms of numbers, around 40 to 50,000. Australia alone had around 6.000.

What we are asking for is, first of all, a recognition that what is going on is Ethno-religious cleansing. That is to say, in Iraq we have absolutely no protection, no security of our own, no legal or political recourse. We have simply been surrendered to the chaos which is taking place there, with nothing to stand against it.

Many of the signs you'll see point to a movement called #DemandForAction and also contain the phrase SafeHavenNow. What they point to is our desire to create a semi-autonomous region, within the Ninevah province where we can guide our own destiny, where we no longer have to be at the mercy of death squads, paramilitary groups, auxiliary forces, all other groups which have taken over Iraq, which have turned the Iraqi army into what it is now, which is nothing.

We want a region where we can live side by side with the other minorities which inhabit it, and where we can flourish, and where we can secure our own future in Iraq. That is what we want. However, we also exhibit solidarity with all our brothers and sisters in Syria, especially in the province of Hassekah, who are also undergoing terrible security crisis, and securing themselves against ISIS's onslaught.

Who would set up this province, who are you directing these pleas to?

This movement has been going on for a long time. It has really gathered momentum over the past 7 years. What is strange about what is going on now is that previously we were lobbying the Federal Government of Iraq to say "look, there is a region which Kurdistan covets and it’s in between the area which is definitely yours, and the area that is definitely theirs, and they have designs on it and we want it to become semi-autonomous.

So it was directed at the Federal Government, sort of against Kurdish designs, especially since Kurdistan kept putting off a referendum in the region in order to flood the area with more Kurds. Now all of a sudden the situation is very different indeed, that is to say, most of the plains have been taken by the Kurds. There is no reason to believe that they want to give them back, they have expanded their own territory by over 30%.

So in our protest today [August 2nd 2014] in London, in our demands, we said: Irrespective of who controls the plain, we want it to be semi-autonomous whether its Kurdish or Iraqi. Either way it will not pose a security threat to anybody, to say the least. To arm extremely disadvantaged groups like the Assyrians, the Yezidis, the few Mandeans, an absolutely extraordinary sect, the Shabaks and so on... these people are not interested in taking anybody else’s land, they simply want to secure their own.

We don't want a state, we want a part of Iraq, whether with the Kurds - we have a long and very complex relationship with them, we can certainly "do business with them" - or whether it is with Iraq, if they can get it together and expel ISIS.

Mardean Isaac

Interestingly the Kurds at the moment seem to be the ones who are best equipped to confront ISIS and defend the Christians in the region...

That's also interesting. There have been reports of fighting between the Kurds and ISIS today [August 2nd 2014], but they have so far had an implicit mutual enemy. The Kurds have taken what they want from Iraq and ISIS have taken what they want and they have allowed each other to do that.

Of course, with all these implicit deals, once these territories are secure now it’s uncertain what is going to happen. The Kurds have taken us in. I don't think they should be praised to much for that, we're talking about dealing with people like the Christians of Mosul who have been dispossessed of absolutely everything, they weren't even allowed to take watches or rings for God's sake. So the fact that the Kurds have set them up in shelters is... ok, fine.

But the Kurdistan Regional Government has a lot to answer for in terms of the way they treat us. They need to stop privileging building rights to Kurds, they need to stop confiscating our lands, all kinds of issues need to be worked out between us and the Kurds. But yes, certainly, there is a possibility of establishing an understanding. But the Kurds need to get out of their mode of insecurity, this mode of land grabbing and desperation to secure as much as possible, and ethnic hegemony. Its partially understandable why they are in that state, given their history and their antagonism towards Arabs and the State of Iraq, but they need to get out of it immediately and recognize that we suffered together in the North, we fought together against Saddam, our villages and our treasures were also destroyed, we have a shared history and they must recognize this. They must stop calling us Kurdish Christians. We have no interest in being called Kurdish Christians, we are not Kurds. And we deserve not only our full cultural, linguistic and religious rights, but also some degree, an appropriate degree of self-administration.

All of the Middle Eastern Christian religious leaders I have spoken too, and others I have read have been unanimous in saying they don't want a separate homeland just for the Christians. How far can this movement go if it doesn't have the backing of the religious leaders?

That's an interesting question...

I'll speak for myself. The position of the Chaldean church, especially their leader in America, is an outrage. His position is that because the Chaldeans inhabit a spiritual nation they have no particular interest in clinging to the territories they have in Iraq. Many statements have been made by Chaldeans that have deeply disappointed us regarding their attachment to Iraq.

As far as any religious leader who is ignoring the political reality must be criticized for it. We have absolutely no interest in being politically beholden to our religious leaders. If people want to go to church, affiliate themselves with whichever ecclesiastical institution it's their business. When it comes to issues of politics and history, I personally, and many other Assyrians, don't believe that the Churches should play a leading role, at all.

Autonomy, that's fine... but who would defend this state? Would it make a difference if you're all gathered in one place but there are still these groups that just want you gone? And on this subject, the bishops have been clear in saying that they don't want Christian militias, they don't want to respond to these persecutions with force. Is that your position? Is there a place for arming the Christians to be able to defend themselves in the Middle East?

Yes, I think there is a place for arming Christians to be able to defend themselves. To say that we don't want to respond to these persecutions with force is utterly baffling to me. We have no interest in doing anything with arms, other than protecting our villages. So in terms of the Church leaders who have a blanket position on these things, which I consider to be a politically cowardly one, I would simply like them to answer specifically as to what many people in the Ninevah plains need to do when they hear news of ISIS approaching within half a day.

Militantes do Estado Islâmico em cima
de uma Igreja em Sinjar, no Iraque

I've spoken to some of these people and they've gone to Turkey, where they live in a state of Limbo, because they are not Turkish citizens, especially when whole villages or communities are drained, they have no idea when they can return. Leaving is difficult, returning is difficult, their lives are completely suspended.

We're not talking about suddenly handing out guns to people, we're not talking about being irresponsible, and to suggest that we are, simply by recognizing the security problem is just bizarre to me. It's bizarre to anybody involved. Just go to Demand For Action, an initiative unconnected to any religious group or political party, its bizarre to them too.

What we need is organized, sanctioned, official security forces. Not militias, not squads of guys with guns, but people who protect villages and will put off attacks by looters and pillagers, which is what these groups are.

To even describe ISIS as an Islamic State is an absurdity. It’s a rag-tag crew of angry, stupid young men, who join together to go on a murder spree. It’s as if they are playing video games, that's how despicable they are. They gun people down wantonly... And there aren't that many of them. The Iraqi army should have protected us and they didn't.

So my question to all of our church leaders who are saying "we're Christian, we don't do violence", and so on, is, "what is the alternative?". That's my question.

Who are the Assyrians?

Mardean Isaac explains who the Assyrians are and gives us his perspective on the debate over Arab/Assyrian identity of Middle Eastern Christians. This is a full transcript* of the first part of an interview. The second part, on the possible creation of an Assyrian homeland, can be found here.

Mardean Isaac ajuda-nos a perceber quem são os Assírios e dá-nos a sua perspectiva sobre o debate acerca da identidade dos cristãos no Médio Oriente. Transcrição completa da primeira parte de uma entrevista, cuja continuação, sobre a eventual criação de um território para os assírios, está aqui.

Where were you born?

I was born in England. My father is an Iraqi Assyrian and my mother is an Iranian Assyrian.

Assyrian, what exactly does that term mean?

The term refers to an ethnic group who inhabit a contiguous region which is roughly correspondent to what is now described as Kurdistan, so South-east Turkey, North-East Syria, North-West Iraq, the Urmia region of Iran, and we are a non-Arab, non-Kurdish people, we speak colloquial dialects of Aramaic with some native morphology, even though our liturgical and ecclesiastical dialects are middle-Aramaic/Classical Syriac, we speak vernacular versions of those.

We have existed in those settings as a community for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Assyrian is a term we use to describe ourselves because we trace our ancestry and heritage to the inhabitants of that ancient civilization and we continue to inhabit many of its territories.

Are Assyrians Christians?

Yes. That is to say that they are almost entirely a Christian people -- I am not speaking to their particular beliefs, i.e. whether they are practicing or not. There are ethnic Assyrians who have converted to Islam over the centuries and have lost their identity and language. In recent memory, there are Assyrians who were forcibly converted to Islam and/or 'Kurdified' during the Assyrian genocide of the early 20th century. There is also a small number of Jewish Assyrians.

When we speak of Assyrians, we are not speaking of all Christians in the Middle East... Would Assyrians include the Chaldeans for example?

The Chaldean church is a Catholic branch of what is now called the Assyrian Church of the East. The first Church of the East Patriarch to enter communion with Rome was Yohannan Sulaqa in 1552. The Chaldean Church became a 'millet' of the Ottoman Empire in 1846. Chaldeans are Catholic, but ethnically Assyrian.

How about the maronites, for example?

The Maronites are obviously a Levantine people. Historically they have used Syriac, our classical language, but ethnically it depends what you mean. They belong to a different region, but it is tricky because many of them refer to themselves as Surayeh, which is hard to translate directly, but translates into Syriac -- or Syrian, in a non-Arab sense. So I would say there is a link in terms of a Syriac heritage, as well as a culture of martial highland resistance, but ethnically, directly, they are not the same as us, no.

I know that the term Assyrian is not necessarily embraced in the Middle East, there are many who are attached to an Arab identity. How peaceful is the term in characterizing Christians in the Middle East?

I think the Maronites have a very special place in the political history of the Middle East, especially in the XXth Century, that is to say, at the time of the Lebanese independence they were around 40 or 50% of the population. They spearheaded the independence movement, so their adoption of the Arab identity was the closest you could say to a majoritarian adoption of that identity. They chose to do it for the sake of the country, so to say, they wanted to align themselves with the countries nearby them and so on.

Iraqi Christian displaced by Islamic State

They don't call themselves Assyrian and over time, especially with the failure of our own national movement, which collapsed when the Ottoman Turks massacred us in 1915-1918, with the collapse of that movement the churches started to entrench themselves and try and enforce their own authority over their communities and distance themselves from a national identity.

I call myself Assyrian, I have many Chaldeans in my family who also call themselves Assyrian, we all speak Suret, which is a dialect of Aramaic with Akkadian elements, which we usually refer to in English as Assyrian, and I know countless members of the Syriac Orthodox Church also refer to themselves as Assyrian.

The Patriarch of the Melkite church, for example, is very emphatic about the Christians being Arabs just like their neighbours. Is that also a leftover of the Arab Nationalist movement?

Absolutely. The division, broadly, is between people who want to assert themselves independently of Arabism, and independent of the dominant hegemonic forces in the region, which are and were Arabism and more recently Islam. So when it comes to the Melkite Church, increasingly it is true of the Chaldean Church, this was true of the Maronite Church, although Maronite political parties have more recently begun to move away from an Arab identity, and during the Lebanese Civil War many groups, though ostensibly Catholic, refused to identify as Arabs. It has to do with whether the leaders of the churches feel they have to prioritize their congregation and their ecclesiastical authority on the Arab dominion, or whether they side with their people, in other words, they try and move towards a situation where they establish themselves quasi-independently.

Our Patriarch of the Church of the East wanted to establish an Assyrian State, under the auspices of the British, so that division between Arab and Non-Arab, has to do with that. But of course, when they describe themselves as Arabs it goes without saying that they are not "real" Arabs. They are not the Arabs of the Gulf, they don't belong to Arab tribes. The Arabism is a political movement which began in the Early XXth Century and under whose auspices they wish to go in order to save their own church and find a place for their religion in an Arab world.

During the Arab Nationalist movement, many Christians saw this as an opportunity and thought this was a chance to fit in and play leading roles, and many did. But with the failure of the Arab Nationalist movement, in practical terms, could it make it worse if they identify as non-Arabs?

It’s an odd situation. In the case of ISIS there is not a trace of Arabism in them. It’s a kind of bizarre international murder gang of Chechen and Welsh teenagers, and Afghans and all kinds of people. Of course they are preoccupied in a bizarre manner with what they call original Islam, but overall in terms of the discussions I have with Middle Eastern people my age, they find the ethnic aspect of Assyrians utterly baffling. They may discover with surprise that we don't speak Arabic, but broadly they simply see us as Christians and increasingly they see each other as simply Shiite or Sunni rather than primarily as Arabs.

Of course there are all kinds of tribal, geographical, local forces at work in all of these conflicts, but the area of broad ethnic identification is certainly in decline. And the regimes that supported that identification are collapsing. 


*A few corrections and minor alterations were submitted to these answers by Mardean Isaac in November 2014. I accepted these as they made no change to the overall tone or message of the original interview, and improved its clarity in some ways. In some cases they were spelling corrections to terms I had misheard during the interview.