Este post contém más notícias, mas não temais!

O cardeal Zuppi, que o Papa encarregou de tentar obter um acordo de paz entre a Ucrânia e a Rússia, viajou para Moscovo, onde se encontrou com altas figuras quer do Estado, quer da Igreja Ortodoxa. A Rússia garante que não há nada de concreto por enquanto, mas sabendo que grande parte destes processos passa por ganhar a confiança dos parceiros de diálogo, o mero facto de a viagem ter existido é um bom sinal.

O Grupo VITA, criado pela CEP para acolher e cuidar de vítimas de abusos sexuais, diz que já passou vários casos ao Ministério Público, com quem tem agora um “canal directo”. Não foram dados detalhes sobre os casos, mas são 23 denúncias que não tinham sido feitas anteriormente a qualquer outro organismo.

Por falar em abusos, há ainda algumas novidades que não merecendo a publicação de um novo post, devem ser partilhadas. A Actualidade Religiosa apurou recentemente que os três padres da diocese de Lamego que foram referidos nas listas entregues às dioceses viram os seus casos arquivados e por isso estão em plena actividade. Isto inclui o padre que tinha sido referido por engano na lista de Bragança, mas era de facto de Lamego.

Apurou ainda que o padre originalmente de Setúbal que residia em Vila Real, e que por engano vinha referido em ambas as listas, com as duas dioceses a disputar quem tinha de facto responsabilidade sobre ele, vai ficar sob a alçada de Vila Real, por decisão do Vaticano. O padre já se encontra provisoriamente afastado, por isso a grande novidade é que agora o seu processo pode avançar. Por fim, a informação que não foi apurada por mim, mas que só encontrei recentemente, de que um padre “jovem, no activo” de Braga, que foi denunciado pela mãe de uma alegada vítima ainda no tempo de D. Jorge Ortiga, é afinal o padre Albino Meireles, que constava da lista da Comissão Independente. Isto significa que nas minhas listagens ele estava duplicado. A situação foi corrigida, e os números finais e estatísticas actualizados. O padre Albino é suspeito de ter abusado de cinco vítimas e ainda de ter acedido a material pornográfico infantil, para além de ser acusado de posse de arma e munições proibidas.

Recordo que tenho três posts de referência sobre estes assuntos. Uma cronologia actualizada de todas as situações públicas de abusos na Igreja; um relato mais detalhado, por diocese, de tudo o que se sabe e o que não se sabe sobre todos os casos que são conhecidos e por fim um outro post só sobre os casos referidos nas listas da Comissão Independente.

A semana passada falei-vos do Relatório da Liberdade Religiosa, publicado pela fundação Ajuda à Igreja que Sofre. Esse relatório está cheio de casos terríveis e um dos países mais preocupantes é a Nigéria. Pois bem, esta semana partilho convosco uma outra história vinda da Nigéria que mostra que há sempre esperança! Leiam sobre os muçulmanos de uma aldeia no norte que juntaram dinheiro para pagar o resgate dos seus vizinhos cristãos que tinham sido raptados.

Deixo-vos ainda com o link para o meu mais recente artigo no jornal dos Combonianos World Mission, sobre a dupla tragédia que atinge a Síria, e convido-vos a ler este artigo sobre o conflito interétnico que se tornou uma perseguição aos cristãos em Manipur, na Índia.

Eu sei que muitas das notícias que partilho convosco são tristes, ou são assustadoras. Mas a Bíblia diz-nos muitas vezes para nada temer (há quem diga que são 365 vezes, mas cheira-me a mito urbano). Na verdade, diz-nos Jesus, a única coisa que devemos temer é Aquele que tem poder sobre a vida e sobre a alma: Deus. Mas afinal de contas devemos temer ou não? E o que significa temer a Deus? O padre Paul Scalia explora essa questão magnificamente no artigo desta semana do The Catholic Thing.

"Mother Teresa had a very good sense of humor!"

O padre Brian Kolodiejchuk com a
Madre Teresa e o Papa João Paulo II

This is a full transcript of my interview with Fr. Brian Kolodiejchuk, postulator of mother Teresa's cause of canonization. The news feature, in Portuguese, can be found here.

Transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista ao padre Brian Kolodiejchuk, postulador da Causa de Canonização de Madre Teresa de Calcutá. A reportagem pode ser lida aqui. 

Mother Teresa will be canonized on September 4th, in Rome. Why not in Calcutta? Would it not have made more sense?

I understand why the bishops asked, and wanted, to have it in India, it would have been a big event for India, a shot in the arm, so to say, but I think the Holy Father chose Rome because now they went back to the older system where the beatification is in the local place and the canonization is in Rome, because canonization is presenting the person, in this case Mother Teresa, to the whole church.

So in that sense it is more appropriate to have it in Rome.

Did the current Indian government, which is Hindu nationalist, have anything to do with it?

I don't think so. I saw the other day that there was a delegation of the bishops asking Prime-minister Modi to come and lead it, but I don't know if that will happen.

There might have been practical difficulties of where to put such a big crowd, and security would have been a challenge.

As it is, I think the Holy Father and Archbishop Fisichella of the New Evangelization, wanted to have it in the Jubilee Year and as one of the major events of the Jubilee Year. Because thinking about her possible canonization, they put the Jubilee of the volunteers and workers of Mercy on that weekend because of Mother's feast-day the next day. It wasn't the other way around, they were assuming and hoping there would be the canonization and they made the jubilee of the workers and volunteers. So I think part of the event is that Mother will be, in a sense, the saint of the Jubilee and as the actual apostolate of the Missionaries of Charity are the works of mercy...

How close were you to mother Teresa?

I first met her in 1977 when I was a very young fellow and from there, at her invitation, I joined that first group of the Contemplative brothers and in 1983 I was at the beginning of what is now the Missionary of Charity Fathers. So during those 20 years I happened to be either in Rome or New York and then later in Tijuana, Mexico, so I would see her often. And having been one of the first I would be able to have a chance to see her, and talk to her.

Who asked you to become the postulator?

The postulator is named by the Missionaries of Charity, because he is the actor, the one who is presenting the person and so it was kind of a joint venture of the four branches. The active sisters, the active brothers, the contemplative brothers and the fathers...

Would it not have made more sense to have somebody who was perhaps not so close to her personally? Or was that something which made your work easier?

Actually, at the beginning, when I was doing the course... Because every year the congregation of saints offers a course, and at the beginning one of the sisters and I went and asked who could take on the cause, because I was young and inexperienced, then we went to the Jesuits, to father Molinari and father Gumpel, who are the main men in Rome for this, and they said that it should be one our own, because we were presenting somebody who lived a particular charism, so they said it should be somebody who shares in it, so they really understand.

My obligation was to present as best I can, as objectively as I can, but the actual process was not conducted by me. The diocesan inquiry in Calcutta was done by another episcopal delegate, notary and promoter of justice, and then in the Congregation itself I couldn't even be in when the witnesses were speaking, because if I was sitting there they might think that since I was going to hear... So it was just the person and the tribunal so they would have maximum freedom to speak.

Mother Teresa had her critics. But it seems that these were mostly in the West. Did you ever see the poor she served criticize her or the work the Missionaries did?

Not among the poor, no. Most of the critics were famously Christopher Hitchens and some others. As we were preparing the official material to be presented, on the basis of which the judgement would be made, we watched the film Hitchens had made, “Hell's Angel”, because I wanted to see what the criticism was. And we said there was really nothing there, as long as you know the facts.

So for example he shows Mother Teresa in Tirana, Albania, at Enver Hoxha's tomb, and says she was honouring him. The fact is that she asked to go to the burial place of her mother and her sister. So that is where she thought she was going, but they took her there first. Then they wanted her to put a flower on his tomb, but she said no, so she stood there and after, when she met his wife, she said she had prayed for her husband. Then she realized what the situation was and asked if she could please go to her mother's tomb.

A person from Albania, who was also involved in relating this story, said that everybody in Albania knew that was the protocol. So either the facts were twisted around, like that one, or his opinions came from a different perspective. Hitchens says he went to India and Mother was showing him around and he said that he really felt positively about the work until she took him to the children's home and said that they fought abortion through adoption. So you might not agree, but then it is a matter of opinion.

There was some criticism of the fact that she received money from people who were perhaps not very recommendable. What do you make of that?

When she would know who the person was, then she would refuse. There were cases where she refused... One I think was from a discotheque or something... When she had a sense that it wasn't well gained money she had the courage to refuse, even if it was a large amount.

One of the criticisms was that she had received money from Duvallier in Haiti, but she didn't receive any money from Duvallier, the only thing that was given was one one cheque for 1000 dollars from Mrs. Duvallier, the wife. So that is another one which is said, and it's not even true.

You mention that a dying man once said that all his life he had lived in the street like an animal, yet thanks to her he was dying like an angel… Does this story sum up her mission?

That is another one of the criticisms... Why don't you have a big clinic? But her purpose was that these people were really the dying in the street and the aim of the sisters is immediate and effective help. Exceptions are for things like leprosy, they have leprosy colony and the people live there, work there... The Saris are made by the lepers near Calcutta, so her aim is what we can give today.

She knew very well that you need to change the structures and work for more social justice, and those things, but her vocation, or the Missionaries of Charity vocation is the needs of today, the person who needs to eat, or who needs shelter, in the present moment.

But this idea of giving dignity to those who were marginalized... Does that sum up her mission?

I don't know if I'd say it sums it up completely, but that is certainly a very important part of it, human dignity. She would say my brother and my sister, and no matter what religion, no religion, colour... In this sense we are all children of God.

In Portugal we are currently in the middle of a debate about euthanasia, with proponents arguing that this is a necessary measure for people to be able to die with dignity. Few people are as close to misery, suffering and dying as the Missionaries of Charity, with that in mind, how do you respond?

I think Mother would say, as we say, from natural birth to natural death. And there is a way of dying with dignity which is not the easy solution, which would be to “pull the plug”, but it also involves the value of suffering and the Christian meaning of suffering, because that is another criticism that is made, as if she glorified suffering... Not at all! The whole work is to relieve suffering in whatever way, but at the same time I think she had that supernatural sense that if we give meaning to that suffering, then it has value. It doesn't have value in itself, but from a Christian perspective, especially, it does have value and meaning if it is lived and offered with love.

This idea of giving a meaning to suffering is a language that we are used to as Christians, but she was not working in a Christian atmosphere... Most of the people she served were Hindus, probably some Muslims... Did they manage to relate and understand this aspect?

The work in the home for the dying is to relieve that suffering, and now things are better in Calcutta, so more than half of those who come into the home for the dying don't die. And there are doctors that come so that immediate, basic, medical care is given. And if they get better then they move to another house the sisters have in Calcutta, or whatever they need to do. So the home for the dying still has the purpose of immediate help for somebody who really is dying or, more and more, the chance to get better.

But is this concept of giving meaning to suffering something they can understand?

I don't think the sisters go around saying to all the patients to offer up their suffering. No, it's the relief and helping them to die with dignity and at peace, so for example in New York, when they began work with the AIDS patients, at the beginning there was no hope of living too long... Now it's different. But one of the important things they did was lots of reconciliation with families. One of the men, he wasn't dying, he wasn't dying, until his father came and they had reconciliation and then he was free, so to say, to die. So that is one of the things they do, to die peacefully and with dignity.

Mother Teresa worked in a heavily Hindu society, with a large Muslim minority and only a very small Christian minority. Also, she was an ethnic Albanian, a country which is majority Muslim. What was her stance on inter-religious dialogue?

Mother Teresa had a very great respect for other religions. There was no explicit aim to convert anyone and most of the co-workers, the helpers, in India, or certainly in Calcutta, were Hindus. There was one woman I know who used to go every morning to Kalighat, the home for the dying, for over 25 years. And she was, and is, Hindu. Mother Teresa would say: “It is not for me to convert”, so that her first reaction would be to say to those who were involved, “I hope you become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Christian”. Some of her doctors were Hindus and she would never invite them to convert, it had to be something which came from the people. She'd say she couldn't, God had to do that work in them.

Pope Francis has criticized aggressive proselitism. Could you say that she was a good example of what the Pope recommends nowadays?

Yes. That is what Pope Francis says now, but it was also what the Church was saying then. Service was given without any consideration of background, faith... It was my brother and my sister. From our perspective, we see Jesus in each person, but there was never a distinction made between those who were of one religion or another.

You have said that there was a special relationship between Mother Teresa and Fátima… Could you explain?

When she was a Loretto sister, in India, then especially in the 40s, there was a special emphasis in the church in general, among the Jesuits in Calcutta who were doing a lot of promotion. At the very beginning, as they began their work, they set up a little shrine to Our Lady of Fatima, and they would go on processions.

Our patroness is the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The daily rosary. In the visions Mother Teresa had (interiorly, in the imagination), Our Lady says “pray the rosary and all will be well”. So there is the rosary, also the sense of living and accepting sacrifices that come with our daily life. So there are many elements which are the same.

In 1947, when she was waiting for archbishop Perrier of Calcutta to give his OK for her to begin her work in Calcutta, in one of the letters she spoke of Our Lady of Fatima and said “we will do Her work in the slums”.

So it was very explicit that they would take the message of Our Lady of Fatima, at least amongst the Catholics in Calcutta, to promote that message.

You told a story about how she once placed an image of Our Lady facing the window on a train trip through Russia, saying that she needed to see outsider, since she hadn’t been there for a while… We associate many things to Mother Teresa, but a good sense of humour is not something that springs to mind…

Oh very much so! She had a very good sense of humour! She wasn't a great joke teller, but she was able to tell funny stories and if you were in the mother house and there were 300 sisters – and they had recreation together from 8h30 to 9h00 – and so if you happened to be there you would hear all this laughing and giggling and it was really very joyful. Sometimes she would bend over in laughter, so maybe publicly she didn't give that sense, but when you were one on one, or in a little group, she was very free and they used to enjoy these funny stories.

Mother Teresa’s “dark night of the soul” is something that many people have a difficult time relating to. In fact I remember that when the news broke, some media claimed she had been an atheist… How do you explain this phenomenon she suffered?

I think it was paradoxically experiencing her union with Jesus by not experiencing it. Or maybe better, living her union with Jesus without experiencing the consolation of that union.

She is a woman who is passionately in love with Jesus, for her Jesus is her spouse. Very explicitly, she said, she wants to love him as he has never been loved before. And then – probably women will understand this better than us men – but then to be passionately in love and then is seems that she is rejected, that Jesus is not loving her. It seems that she could not love as she would like to love, and so that is kind of the trial, and there is this aspect of being so united to Jesus that he can share with her his deepest suffering in the Garden of Olives and on the Cross, and his sense of abandonment – we are talking more at the feeling level, because at the same time she would say that she knew that she was united heart and mind – but even if you know it and believe it, that doesn't make the experience any easier.

And then what is unique more to her is that, when she went out into the West of India, she discovered that the greater poverty is this poverty of being unloved, unwanted, and uncared for, which could be rich people, any class of people can suffer this. And she was living that same sense of being unloved, unwanted... So we live poorly and simply so as to be identified with the materially poor, and now we discover that she was living that spiritual poverty, again, identified with all those who didn't....

Especially in the last years, whenever she would travel, even in Calcutta, people would be coming every day and in the mother house there is a chapel and a balcony which goes into the offices, that is where she would meet people, one of our priests called it the balcony apostolate.

People would come from wherever they were, from India, or outside, and tell her their stories... There must have been some horror stories... And so she would have been able to relate to those difficulties, because she wasn't up in the mystical clouds, experiencing this great consolation, on the contrary, so she had that real sense of being identified with those who were suffering spiritually as well.

You quote mother Teresa as saying that she wanted to love Jesus like he had never been loved before. Considering Jesus is first loved by God, as part of a Trinity of love, one could almost say this was blasphemous…

Well, it was something she had heard from Saint Therese, who had the same desire, but it was a way of saying that she really wanted to love Jesus that much, more than Saint Francis of Assisi, John of the Cross, the big saints... To take that really seriously was quite daring. But humanly speaking, she had a strong character... One of the priests I know, who was a psychologist as well, said that the purification, especially before she experienced the union, was so difficult because there was a lot to purify, because she had a strong character.

Would you like to see her become Patron Saint of something? Any idea?

Oh, that's a good question!

One of the things she was known for, even in life, was for those couples who had difficulty conceiving. So even while she was alive people would come and ask her to pray because they were having difficulty having a child, and she would take a miraculous medal – she liked giving miraculous medals to everyone – she would kiss it and say simply, here is the prayer “Mary mother of Jesus, give us a child”. And sometimes she would even say “You will have a child”. And then, almost always, one year later, people would come back and show her the children.

Maybe another one would be travellers, maybe with John Paul II too, they were both big travellers, but she put on many miles every year. So there are those two at least.

Both of those are examples I associate very much to John Paul II as well. There was a very close bond between them, wasn't there?

You can see in some of the pictures when she went to visit John Paul II, and they are very human, very tender. He was taller and she was quite short, so he might be kissing her forehead, and she had her hands clasped, because in her own culture, in India, men and women don't touch in public. So normally, at the very end, she might let us men give her a little embrace, but otherwise if people tried, naturally for another culture, she would back away and give the Indian greeting, “Namaste”, with her hands clasped.

This because she was so well integrated into the Indian culture, or was it part of her Albanian culture as well?

It was amazing how well she understood the Indian culture. One of our priests, who was actually from Canada, he was the superior of our house in Calcutta in those last years, and that was something he explained, that she had a real grasp of the culture.

We are currently in the year of Mercy, of which confession is a central aspect. How important was confession to Mother Teresa?

Very much so! She and we, and the sisters also, have the practice of going once a week. So in the first years she had more of a spiritual director, whom she saw regularly, usually the confessor of the Mother House. But when she travelled she would just go to the regular... They used to have Thursday as their day in, as they'd call it, and so the priest would come at Holy Hour and hear confessions, and she would just take her turn.

She liked to say that we go into the confessional sinners with sin, and we come out sinners without sin.

It was very important to her, and that was one of the reasons she wanted the fathers to begin, because she wanted that priestly aspect which the sisters and brothers couldn't give them. One is the mass, the other is confession.

This vision Pope Francis has for the Church as a field hospital seems to be so much in line with Mother Teresa's mission...

Oh yes! Very much so.

What do you think she would have made of his papacy?

Oh I think she would have loved to see this emphasis on the poor, on the peripheries, because in a sense that is where the Missionaries of Charity already are, with the poorest of the poor, and that is one of the effects of the work, even in India – and the World, she would also say – but also in India, is a greater sense of the poor, and she would accept awards only in the name of the poor. She would go and have a chance to speak because this was a way of drawing attention to the poor. So I think she would be very much in line with, and very pleased with, this emphasis on being attentive to and going out towards the poor.

Of all the things you experienced with mother Teresa, some surely are very personal, but of those you can share, which one struck you most?

There are a couple maybe... My sister is a Missionary of Charity sister and after her final vows she was sent to Poland to be the novice mistress and just a few years later they found melanoma cancer on her skin, in a few places.

Her superior brought her to Rome, where they examined her, and mother was there as well. And at that time I was in with the fathers in New York, and she knew my parents, and there were only the two of us siblings, so she knew she had both of their children, and I think out of consideration for my parents, especially, that she decided that she would take my sister from Rome, change her whole schedule, because going to New York was not part of the plan, and so she changed and came from Rome to New York. Typical of her, if it could be done now it will be done now.

So we picked her up at the airport and went straight to the doctor and one of our postulants who used to work at the hospital there, at one of the major hospitals in New York, and so we arrived and mother met this doctor and said to him: “I have a gift for you. That you make my sister alright”.

So she turned it around, that her gift was that he had a chance to do some good work and please make her sister alright.

Another story is a time we were in San Diego and mother had to go to a clinic and she saw one of the doctors there. And she visited the doctor, who asked her to go and see some of her patients. And she needed to eat, because of the medication she was taking. But the sisters knew that if they told her that she had to stop and eat she wouldn't have done it. But our superior was also on medication so the sisters said that Father Joseph needs to eat.

So we stopped at a Carls Junior, which is like a McDonalds or Burger King type of thing. I was the driver and mother was in the front seat. I and another lay woman went into the store to make the order. I was wearing my clerical collar, and many people in San Diego are Mexican or Mexican American in San Diego, you can live in San Diego and not even speak any English if you wanted too.

So he asked where we were coming from, and we said Tijuana and that I was a priest in Mother Teresa's order, and he said “Oh, Mother Teresa!”, and I was just thinking, if we had just told him, “By the way, this order is for Mother Teresa, who happens to be in the car over there...”

So we got the food and brought it back and distributed it. And Mother was eating her hamburger and French fries and I guess it was too much, so she asked if anybody wanted more French fries... It was just completely normal... And I was thinking how many people would love to have a chance just to see Mother Teresa and here we are having a hamburger and French fries!

And did your sister get well?

Yes she did. She is cancer free.

It can't have been easy for your parents...

No. Mother used to say sometimes that we, the children, make our parents make the sacrifice. It's our call, we respond, but no, it's not easy, especially in this case, because there are no other children, so there are no grand-children.

No resentment?

No! Thankfully they were very happy. They always told us to do what we wanted to do, and even though it did involve sacrifice for them, they were very happy. Until they couldn't anymore they would visit us once a year. We couldn't go home very often, but they came.

"Asia Bibi's imprisonment is a political and not a legal issue"

Archbishop Joseph Coutts. Foto: Edgar Sousa/Renascença

This is a full transcript of my interview with Archbishop Joseph Coutts, of Karachi, Pakistan, about the situation of Christians in Pakistan, the Blasphemy laws and Asia Bibi.
The news story, in Portuguese, can be found here.

Transcrição integral da entrevista ao Arcebispo Joseph Coutts, de Karachi, sobre a situação dos cristãos no Paquistão, a lei da blasfémia e Asia Bibi. A reportagem pode ser vista aqui.

Occasionally we hear stories of persecution coming out of Pakistan, bombings, killings and so on. But what is life like for Christians on a daily basis in your country?

Unfortunately the news that gets out is all the negative news.

When you use the word persecution, I'd just like to clarify that, if you mean persecution by the State or the government is persecuting the Christians, that is not the case.

Of course, as a small religious minority in Pakistan, we have always faced discrimination and are trying to fight against it, things like that were always there, there were always difficulties. But what we are experiencing now, that you are hearing about, the bombing of churches and attacking of Christians, that is a new phenomenon; it’s a new experience for us.

It was a traumatic experience when it happened the first time, in 2001, just after the Americans began bombing Afghanistan, after 9/11, in October. Shortly after that the reaction was very strong, because thousands of Afghan refugees started arriving in Pakistan and all the pictures of women and children crying... Two angry young men, Muslims, entered a church and just started shooting on a Sunday morning, they killed 14 Christians and injured many others.

That was the first time really that Muslims came and attacked a church! We never had that before. Since then we have had even worse experiences. Just this year two more churches were bombed. So this is not coming from the government, it is coming from those extremist groups who have their own agenda and who are a threat even to our Government and other moderate Muslims.

Do you feel that the Government does all it can to protect you?

The Government itself is not in a strong position.

Finally, last year in June 2014 the Government took the decision and the army launched a very big offensive involving about 30 thousand soldiers, with air support, in the mountains bordering Afghanistan, where many of these extremists have found a very good refuge. It's a very difficult terrain, very difficult to control, and this is where they had their factories, producing their homemade bombs, the suicide jackets and things like that. The army action is still ongoing, and we hear reports that there has been some success, but it’s a very slippery adversary, they can very easily slip across the border into Afghanistan, until the heat is off, regroup and start again. So it is a very tricky, difficult and dangerous situation we are in.

Take the current time, Ramadan. Does it affect Christians at all? Are they still free to eat in public during the day, for example?

We see that overall society in Pakistan is becoming more and more Islamised. In this sense, and this is a good example, during Ramadan we see a gradual increasing in the position of Islamic rules that eating houses should be closed and nobody should be found eating during the time of Ramadan, whether Christian or Muslim, and a few years ago it was not so. So there is hardly an option left.

Of course, being Pakistani Christians we are aware of this and we wouldn't want to desecrate or show disrespect for this very deeply religious activity of fasting.

Is there a difference between the city and the countryside? Or from region to region?

I think there are certain areas where there is more prejudice. I am in the large city of Karachi, in the South, which is our largest city, with a population which is easily twice that of Portugal, a big commercial and industrial city, very cosmopolitan, with people of different ethnic groups, many Hindus there - unlike other parts of Pakistan. Things had always been more tolerant in Karachi, while in other areas, specially the rural areas, where the imam still a strong religious and leadership role, with the use of the mosque loudspeaker, if the imam happens to be a fanatic it becomes very easy for him to use the loudspeaker to rouse the sentiments of the people, and this is what has happened not only in villages but also in cities where a false blasphemy accusation.

If the imam takes it up and announces it over the city or the village mosque, then even the Muslims who are sitting neutral, if they hear that the holy book has been desecrated, or the name of the holy prophet has been maligned there is an emotional reaction.

If you were approached by a Muslim seeking conversion and baptism, how would you handle the situation?

Nowadays we would handle it very carefully, with great caution, because it could also well be a trap, and that has also happened, people coming just to try and get us into trouble.

But basically our task, as Christians is not to convert people, but to be witnesses to our faith, to show what it means for us to be Christian, and to be Christian in that particular milieu, and I think much of what we do and say is reflected in all the institutions we have. The Church is very strong in the field of education, we have hundreds of schools, we are generally highly respected and there are many Muslims in our school, many of our teachers, together with Christians, the staff is common. For example, in Karachi we have only one Catholic doctor. The medical advisor is a Hindu and nearly all the other doctors are Muslims. It is known as the Holy Family hospital and it is well known.

In this respect, in terms of conversions and baptisms, for example, do you find that the more informal Protestant churches have more freedom? And does that present difficulties for you?

The freedom is there, but if you misuse it you get into trouble.

Let's be very clear... Muslims are very sensitive about this idea of conversion. When the blasphemy law was passed they wanted to pass another law that if a Muslim changes his religion, he should be declared an apostate and killed. It was not made into law, but it shows you that the thinking is already there.

Are Christians the most oppressed religious minority in Pakistan, or do other groups have it worse than you?

There is a group called the Ahmadis, or Mirzais. The Ahmadis say they are Muslims, but officially they were declared non-Muslims in the 70s, and they say that is not fair. So this is really an internal theological problem there, which makes it very difficult for us to interfere in any way, not being Muslims. They say they are Muslims, but Pakistan is the only country, I guess, where they have officially been declared non-Muslims, they are really being persecuted.

  

The fact the Pakistan is such a homogenously Sunni Muslim country, does that bring you closer to Hindus, Shiites, etc? 

I don't know whether you would call it a homogenous Sunni country... We have a very large minority of Shiites. I don't know the exact figures, but certainly not less than 20%, which is not a small minority. Then there are also other branches of the Shiite movement.

Where the problem is coming from, from the religious point of view, is not from all the Sunnis, it is from some branches. For example, we have the Wahhabis, the Deobandis, these are all Sunni groups. But Wahhabi Islam is the kind of Islam you find in Saudi Arabia, and it is a very narrow and restricted form of Islam. It is the Wahhabis, usually, who are very intolerant and do not easily accept the Shiites and other small groups, like the Ismailis within the Shiites.

Would you say that Wahabbiism is a relatively new phenomenon in Pakistan? Is this a different form of Islam than your father would have recognized in Muslim communities?

This kind of Islam has grown in the last couple of decades. We never had this before. It has come up... There are a number of factors, but this form of Jihadi Islam, promotion of the idea of Jihad, this happened when the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan in 1979 and then that threw a lot of fear into the Western world. 

Remember that is 79/80 the Soviet Union was still a superpower; in Europe you still had the Berlin Wall. So what it meant was that Afghanistan had fallen to communism, and Pakistan might be next. “So stop the communists!” Because if Pakistan fell, it meant an opening to the Gulf and to the source of the Western world's oil, so the USA, with Saudi Arabia and with our government said they better stop the communists right there, and they found the people to do the fighting, the extremist groups. 

The idea of Jihad was officially promoted. Jihad in the sense of taking up weapons and fighting the enemy. The enemy were the atheists, the communists who had entered Afghanistan, a country that is 100% Muslim. So it really appealed to any believing Muslim: Stop atheism, and you are protecting your brother Muslims. So hundreds of young men were trained, with American and Saudi help, to go and fight in Afghanistan.

So what happened to the arms that came in? Given it’s a country with so much corruption, a good percentage went into the black market, into the hands of criminals, drug dealers, into the hands of political parties, and others. With the result that nowadays Pakistan is afloat with small arms, it is very easy to obtain even hand grenades, submachine guns and things like that.

Some of these groups are better armed than our police force. So it is really a big challenge for our government. Our police was not trained in this kind of warfare, using suicide bombings, which most Muslims say is Haram, forbidden, just like in Christianity. But they justify it.

So there are strange things happening within Islam, and what is dangerous is that these groups which were quite isolated and had different agendas, such as Boko Haram, Isis, and here you had the Afghan Taliban, now you also have the Pakistani Taliban, you have Al-Qaeda, it seems they are spreading a new kind of Islam that was not there.  

Has there been an attempt by the more traditional Islamic forces of the Indian subcontinent to try and counter the influence of this Jihadi Islam, and is there any chance they will succeed?

They may be few in number, but they are well armed and well supported. From where exactly, I wouldn't know, and that is what our government would like to know. 

You see the Madrassa, which has been an Islamic institution for centuries, was just a school where you studied the Koran, but when 9/11 came and we had these issues, many madrassas were used as breeding grounds for the selection of young men to be brainwashed, religiously, to go and fight.

And up to now we don't know how many new madrassas just sprang up during those days. Our present government is trying to control that, and to see what is being taught in these madrassas, because many of the problems arise from there. They are fertile ground to recruit young men with the idea of Jihad. 

Are there any high ranking Christians in the Armed forces, police forces, judiciary, for example?

The highest army officer we have is a two star general, just one, but we do have others up to the rank of colonel, a few brigadiers, many majors.

So you would not say that Christians are kept out of the armed forces...

No, but I would say it is impossible to have the Chief of Staff as a Christian... And officially our Constitution says that the President and the Prime minister have to be Muslim. 

Of course you have Christian politicians...

We have a minister now, a federal minister for ports and shipping. 

So there is some participation in the Public, military and political life, for example.

Yes, there is, there is. 

We have heard so much about the blasphemy laws, for so many years now, has anything at all been done to at least reduce their harm?

Ever since this law was introduced, we as Christians have been protesting.

Of course it brings an immediate emotional reaction. The point that has finally got across to the Muslims who did not want this law abolished is not just the abolition of the law but the way the law is framed, that we need safeguards to prevent the misuse of this law, which is what has been happening all along.

I think there is more awareness now in the country. Earlier it was just not accepted that what was happening was that the law was being misused to settle personal enmities, jealousy and other things, not just to get people into trouble, but even to get them killed. And there is talk, more and more, of putting in some safeguards to prevent this from happening.

Which you would consider a success?

It’s something, definitely! Because things are bad, the way it is being misused.

Do you have any idea how many people in general are in prison at the moment because of the blasphemy laws?

There are statistics, but I don't want to give the wrong figures at the moment. There are many Christians, but many Muslims as well.

But are we talking about dozens or hundreds?

Not hundreds, but certainly dozens.

Because this affects not only Christians...

The law is for everybody! And at the moment, statistically, there are more Muslims in jail for blasphemy than Christians.

The Government has now passed a law stating that the first thing to do is to have the person examined for his mental state of mind, because some of the cases have happened with people who were not mentally sound. It is very easy to want to kill such a person, so the person first has to undergo a psychological test.

Nobody has ever been executed because of a blasphemy law, but it is still life threatening just to be accused, is it not?

Yes, that is right. The law has not yet executed anybody for Blasphemy, but all the killings have been extra-judicial and they have been like lynchings. The emotions take over and before the person has a chance to clear his name, it is too late.

Sometimes even after acquittal...

That has also happened. A few years ago there was a case of a 13 or 14 year old boy accused of Blasphemy, of having written very bad words on the wall of a mosque. Finally, when the case came up in the high court it was proved that the boy was hardly literate and that it was impossible for him to have written those kinds of words. He was rightly acquitted by the high court, but the fanatics kept screaming for his life. There was an attempt to kill him. With him were his two uncles, who were also accused. They killed one, in a drive-by shooting by two Muslims on a motorcycle, and the boy and the other uncle were slightly injured. They had to be hidden and were finally given asylum in Germany, I don't know where they are now. This was over 10 years ago. They were Christians.

Of course the most famous victim of the blasphemy laws has been Asia Bibi, what news is there of her? Is she ill?

I wouldn't be able to give you up to date condition of Asia Bibi, I am right down in Karachi and she is up North, about 1300 km away, our Justice and Peace Commission is handling the case, with a number of NGO's supporting, but I don't have the latest information, so it would not be fair to say anything right now.

When Western governments and influential figures speak about her case and put pressure on the Pakistani government, might this be counterproductive?

Yes, because you should understand that it is not just the government. The Government is not strong. This kind of extremist fanaticism is very strong, in the sense that if you are the judge you will be threatened, and you will be very careful before going against an existing decision of the court for the death penalty.

A few years back we had a parliamentarian, a very fine lady, a Muslim, who had said she would put in a petition in Parliament to review the blasphemy law. The intention was, ultimately, to abolish it. When some fanatics came to know this they started threatening her, and the threats were taken seriously.

She being a very capable lady, a parliamentarian and otherwise very knowledgeable, was appointed an ambassador to another country, to protect her. She is back now after a few years.

So that is how it is. It is not the government alone that has the power to take the decision. They have the power, but if they make the decision they also fear the reaction.

Why is she even still in jail? Is it a legal issue, or a political issue?

It is more political, and it is fear of the extremists.

I'll give you another example. Shortly after Asia Bibi was condemned to death, by the lower court and not yet by the higher court, it was none other than the governor of the most powerful province of Pakistan who, being a very fair minded person, a Muslim, went to the jail to visit Asia Bibi and suggested she write an appeal to the President of the Republic of Pakistan, because the President has the power to commute a death sentence. And he told her not to worry, because he would take her appeal personally and present it to the president. 

When that appeared in the press the next day, the fanatics went mad! Who was the President of the Republic to grant pardon to somebody who has insulted the prophet? The best remedy is death!

So when you are up against this kind of thinking, and these extremists are not only ready to kill, they are ready to die. And that is where you have this whole thing of suicide bombing.

Do you believe she will be freed, eventually?

That would only be a guess. The efforts continue, and that won't stop.

You were born before partition...

As many people were!

And is your family originally from Amritsar, where you were born?

No, my parents are originally from further South, from a place called Goa.

(Edgar Sousa/Renascença)

When there was partition and your family found themselves in Pakistan, a new country formed especially for the Muslim community, did it ever occur to them or to any Christians who found themselves in that situation, to move away? Did it occur to them that things might reach this situation?

No. Because nearly all the Christians in Pakistan were already where they are. My father had an option, because he was working in a multinational company and if he had wanted to stay in India he could have asked to be transferred to Delhi, or somewhere else, but he just continued in Lahore. So there was no question there, and I think most of the Christians were quite happy.

Remember that at that time the founder of Pakistan, Mohammed Ali Jinnah had made a beautiful speech, where he said to the Parliament: “You are free to go to the mosque, to the temple or to any place of worship. What you believe has nothing to do with the State. We must all now learn to be Pakistanis first”, which was very reassuring. So the stress was not on being Muslim or non-Muslim, but on being Pakistanis in the new country.

At that time, I can only imagine, because I was a couple of years old, everybody must have been very happy with that. But what we have been seeing, as things have been developing, the idea of Pakistan as a homeland for Muslims, as a modern democratic state… Now we hear the extremists saying they don't want democracy, it is a Western concept, they want a Caliphate, an Islamic State, which is something completely different from what the founding fathers of Pakistan had in mind. 

And that is where the real clash is. It is not Muslim-Christian, it is a whole new ideology, and these extremists are basically against the State. When they attack us it is to embarrass the state. 

If things don't improve within the next few years, if they get worse, as is happening in many Middle Eastern countries, for example, is there a future for Christians in Pakistan?

Some already think that there is no future. 

A number of Christians, a few hundred perhaps, have already found refuge in Sri Lanka, because visas are not too difficult to obtain, a few hundred fled to Thailand, precisely because they see no future. But for me, personally, we should not give up hope.

If there is a young couple who tell you they are thinking of leaving, do you discourage them from going?

Yes I would. Because I think they also have very simple ideas, just as you have these migrants coming to Europe, crossing the Mediterranean. They have an idea that things will be very easy once they go abroad. I would never advise anybody to do that. There have been extreme cases, where people have been threatened for various reasons, where we have supported them, as individuals to seek refuge. There are other examples of enlightened Muslims, who have spoken against extremism... 

I remember when Osama Bin Laden was still alive and was considered a hero, and he declared a Jihad against all the Americans, and all non-Muslims, and there was a good imam who gave a very good speech, a very good talk, explaining what Jihad really means, and he said this is not Jihad, only a legitimate authority can declare Jihad and you have to be very clear who the enemy is, and he gave very good, logical reasons. Within a week he was killed by a suicide bomber. So it is not just a question of being threatened. Most sensible people, moderate people, who want to live peaceful lives, regardless of their religion, at the moment, are under threat in Pakistan.

Is moving to India an option?

A number of Hindus have considered that option, they would feel more welcome there, especially with the present government in India.

So your family is from Goa, do you trace your history to the presence of the Portuguese in Goa? Were your ancestors converted by the Portuguese?

I wouldn't know exactly. They say that when the Portuguese arrived the Franciscans were already in Goa. So it is not as simple as that. Because Christianity was, for sure, already there since the second century, lower down in Kerala.

They say they found a cross identical to the St. Thomas cross in Goa recently. There is no historical evidence, but they say that St. Thomas and St. Bartholomew went to that coastal area. The whole area was a port, and a port brings all sorts of people together. There were Armenian Christians who were traders, Christians from Persia, and other parts, who travelled this coastal area. And usually in a coastal area you get a mixture of different kinds of people. 

So it is not very clear at what point Christianity arrived. It certainly developed much more when the Portuguese arrived, it became much stronger. 

Is there a memory of the first conversion in your family?

Because we were away from Goa, and even for me Goa is nothing more than a tourist spot, although I do have first cousins there, much of my family is in different parts of the World. Canada, a brother settled in Sweden, so really I have been away from my roots since birth.

We hear so many appeals from the Middle East, Iraq, Syria, from Patriarchs, Archbishops, for help. But what exactly can we do, for example, to help the Pakistani Christians?

If you are talking about financial help, I would say you are already doing it, through Aid to the Church in Need. I am not here to collect funds, but to create awareness, at the invitation of ACN. 

You are on the ground, you see how the money is spent and the effects of donations made here...

Definitely, in Pakistan, Aid to the Church in Need has been a very good benefactor for many years, building churches, convents, the education of seminarians for the priesthood. Any other pastoral needs, ACN has been there to help us and they still help us! 

As for the really big needs in Syria and Iraq, we pray to God that we don't reach a situation like that.

When you hear, in Pakistan, that people are praying for you. Does that help?

Yes. I was very moved yesterday when I went to Guimarães. The faith of the people, a living faith, and also the concern, the special prayers, with banners which depicted persecution. I recognized the scenes in two of them, and there were others from Iraq, Syria, Nigeria as well.

So the prayers and the sincerity of the people who assured us that they would continue praying, is something very moving, which I take back with me, to our people. 

The Archbishop and yours truly  (Edgar Sousa/Renascença)