This is
a full transcript of my interview with Fr. Timothy Radcliffe, in which he talks
about the importance of the body for Christians, his position on homosexuality and
says that the Cardinals who have been critical of the Pope ought to be engaged
with.
The Portuguese
news stories can be found here
and here,
the piece for The Tablet can be read
here (paywall).
You are here for two conferences. Let’s start
with the one about the body…
Is our understanding of the body in crisis? And
by us, I mean society in general, rather than Catholics.
I think
in the Western World we have an ambiguous relationship with the body. On the
one hand we try to be beautiful, so people are very conscious of their bodies.
At the same time we are often dualistic, so we hear about how people think that
they are really their minds. Since Descartes, there is a lot of dualism in our
culture.
So, what
I am trying to suggest is how we recover a sense of the unity of the Human
person. That we really are body and soul.
Recently an article in First Things spoke of
the West’s current relation with body as “Gnostic
Liberalism”. Is this a good description?
It’s not
a description I've heard. I think there is something in it.
I
suppose what they mean is that the gnostics often had a very dualistic
approach, so you did not identify with your body. St. Dominic founded the order
to preach against the Cathars, who thought that the body was bad. Catharism was
a late version, really, of gnosticism. So from the beginning, the mission of
the order was to say that the body was good. And that we are, in a real sense,
bodily people.
You say in your book that child abuse is a
corruption of the sense of touch… In the wake of the scandal, is there a risk
we might go too far? There is now in some quarters a fear of touching children
at all, of being alone with children… Is that a risk for society as well?
I think
on the one hand we cannot go too far to make sure that our children are safe.
On the
other hand, it seems to me that to grow up as a happy child you need to be
relaxed in the presence of grown up friends, the friends of your parents, and
touch is a very human thing, for Thomas Aquinas it is the most human of the
senses, and Jesus touched children, he touched the sick, he touched the ill.
And so touch is a very important part of any good human relationship.
So we
find ourselves in a genuine difficulty. We have to safeguard our children,
absolutely. But on the other hand, to deprive them of affectionate
relationships with adults would be very damaging for the children and for
everybody.
So if we
become so suspicious that no adult can be trusted, we will do damage to
children in another way.
You have been accused of “pushing the
boundaries of orthodoxy” with some of your positions on homosexuality for
example. What is your position on homosexual relationships?
First of
all, orthodoxy pushes us to the boundaries, always. Orthodoxy is not about
tying up the faith in a few narrow little sentences. Orthodoxy is pushing you
towards the mystery of God. So a really orthodox person – and I am very
orthodox – is somebody who is always trying to understand a little bit more
deeply what is the nature of God's love, and how we live it.
Orthodoxy
is not against adventure. It pushes us towards the mystery.
On the
question of homosexual relationships, I think the most important thing is to
help people to love well. That means you have to be close to them, you have to
listen to them, and you have to share with them the Gospel, so that we help gay
people to love in a way that is more profound and more respectful of the other.
A lot of
people in England now assume that respect for homosexual relationships means
that you must approve of gay marriage. I have written two articles about this,
and I think myself that it is a mistake. I don't think it is possible,
actually, for two people of the same sex to be married to each other. But that
is a long question, I would have to talk for half an hour to explain why.
But I
think my views on homosexuality are perfectly normal, they are no distanced
from Cardinal Hume, the Church in England or, indeed, Pope Francis. My first
position is rather than come in with judgement, I feel we have to listen to gay
people and accompany them as they seek to learn how to love well.
Is the concept of gay marriage a result not
only of the normalisation in society of the idea of homosexuality, but also of
a crisis in the concept of marriage?
I would
say it reflects what we think about sexual difference.
I think
sexual difference is a profound part, not only of human nature, but of all
nature. The whole of evolution depends upon the functioning of sexual
difference, beginning with the simplest animal. Sexual difference is a great
motor of creativity in our world. And marriage is the consecration of something
of profound significance, not just for human beings, but for all life.
Now, to
imagine that we can simply forget this in a relationship and have a marriage of
two people of the same sex is to ignore something fundamental about how life
is, from its very beginnings.
All the
sacraments take fundamental things about being alive: Eating, drinking and
sexual difference. And they consecrate them in the name of the Lord of Life. So,
much as I respect gay people, much as I hope that they can have relationships
of love and commitment, I do not think it is possible for them to marry.
The Church has been a sometimes lonely voice in
the current debate, underlining the sacredness and the personality of the body.
You write movingly about using the body for prayer. Some cultures seem to do
that more easily than others. What can we do to involve our body more in prayer
and spiritual life?
That is
a very deep question, and I don't really know the answer.
The first
thing is to recognise that when we pray our bodily position is of great
importance. In the Middle Ages, and going back to the Desert Fathers, they
always understood that prayer involves how you sit, how you breathe, how you
move. So, deep in the Western tradition is already recognition of the
importance of the body in prayer. You find this in St. Dominic, in his “Nine Ways
of Prayer”, they are all nine ways of physically, how you are in your body. In
genuflection, in prostration, in elevating your hands, and in everything.
The
second point, is that if you look at the Old Testament you see that dance is an
important part of prayer. And you can see still in Africa that people dance
during the liturgy.
Now, how
could we recover that tradition? I am not sure, to be honest.
Most
attempts at liturgical dance in the West have been a little bit ridiculous,
usually executed by people who don't know how to dance. So, what I have seen
has not been very encouraging.
But I
think it’s a challenge we have to look at. One of my brothers, an English
Dominican, has composed a dance of praise for God, a young friar, which has
received enormous recognition in Britain. So we are at the beginning of trying
to discover this.
|
King David dances before the Ark |
Moving on to the other topic you are here to
speak about: Conscience.
Austen Ivereigh recently
wrote that the discussion about Amoris Laetitia is not about doctrine at
all, but a continuation of the discussion on the primacy of conscience. Do you
agree?
Absolutely,
yes. And I think the primacy of conscience, the whole debate, goes back a lot
further, it goes particularly back to the XIX Century, to Cardinal Newman, who
Pope Benedict XVI called the Doctor Conscientiae, the Doctor of Conscience, the
great teacher of conscience.
So
beginning certainly in England, with Newman, you see the evolution of a much
more profound understanding of conscience, and in many ways the Second Vatican
Council has been called the Council of Newman. It was trying to catch up with a
lot of his theology, the theologian who Pope Benedict called his own favourite
theologian.
So there is no doctrinal change in AL?
No, I
think the question is not to change doctrine. It is not to dispense people from
doctrine, it is not really about doctrine at all. It is about trying to
understand more deeply how people travel towards God. It is a very profound
meditation on what it means to be a moral being. Ever since Thomas Aquinas we
have seen how morality should not be seen primarily in terms of obedience to
rules, but in growing in virtue. But this is a time in Western Society where we
are recovering a lot of Aquinas' understanding of Virtue. Going back to
Aristotle. Where you grow in maturity and you grow in freedom.
And I
think that a lot of what Pope Francis is saying is not challenging the teaching
of the Church. What it is, is trying to go to a lower level, to understand the
moral life, as a growth in maturity, joy and freedom.
I am 36 years old, and I don’t recall seeing
such sharp divisions in the church between so-called progressives and so-called
conservatives… Do you?
I think
that in the 60s and 70s we saw very profound divisions, a collapse of
communication. What is new today is that the divisions focus around the Pope
himself. That is new. And the Pope now is seen to be a figure who is being
opposed by many people who have senior positions in the Church. So the fact of
division is not so much new, what is new is where the divisions are taking
place.
In the now famous case of the Dubia, the Pope
seems determined not to answer. Do you think he should?
I think
that it would be good to engage more closely with the four cardinals. I think
it is important to recognise that they speak honestly. I disagree with them, I
agree with the Pope's position. But I think we have to understand that they are
expressing genuine doubts, and they are doubts which are felt by many young
people.
I myself
think it is important to engage with them, if they wish to be engaged with.
|
Bishop Jean-Paul Vesco |
Again, in your book you mention a time when you
were going to speak in Dublin and were interrupted by traditionalists, reciting
the rosary. You criticize both traditionalists and progressives for not being
able to listen to each other… Does that mean you do not like being labelled as
a progressive?
Exactly!
I would
reject any such label, either as progressive or as conservative. The motto of
the Dominican order is Veritas - Truth. And what I hope is that together we
seek what is true.
And to
seek what is true you have to listen to the Word of God, you have to listen to
the magisterium, you have to listen to the Tradition, you have to listen to
your conscience, and I think that to impose simplistic labels is to stop the
conversation in which we can all take part.
I live
in a community in Oxford, most of the friars are young. The average age of our
community of about 24 friars would be about 35. And many people would say that
I am one of the old fashioned liberals, and they are the modern
conservatives... It’s not true! I can live with, talk with and discuss anything
with my younger brethren. And for me that is a joy.
I hope
that we help each other to discover what the truth is.
You
mention this case in Dublin, where there was an attempt by a group of people to
stop me talking. Afterwards some of them waited near the hotel and grabbed me.
And we sat down and we were able to have a conversation. And when we talked,
they found they had misunderstood what I had been saying. And they apologised.
I think
that if you engage in a real conversation, you nearly always are able to
overcome these misunderstandings. We are all seekers.
Specifically about the crux of the matter in
AL, communion for divorced and remarried, the Maltese bishops recently
published guidelines for these situations and they seem to conclude that there
may be cases where people in those situations, through accompaniment, and so
on, can come to the conclusion that they are at peace with God and that they
can go to communion. In your opinion, are there cases in which people can be in
a state of sin, but not objectively sinful, as it says in the text?
Yes, I
think so. What I would say is that we are finding our way towards clarity, and
it is difficult quite to understand at the moment.
There
was a very good book written by a Dominican bishop in Algeria, Jean-Paul Vesco,
where he argues in favour of the indissolubility of marriage, very clearly, he
does not doubt the doctrine of the indissolubility of marriage. But he
recognises that there are some times when, actually, a relationship has died.
If your
husband or your wife physically dies, then the church recognises that you are
free to marry again, and what the bishop seems to argue, if I have understood
him, is that there can be cases where relationships die, effectively. And then,
perhaps, it is time to move on. I think that this may be implicitly the case in
AL, but I don't think it is explicitly the case.
You see,
when you get new movements of the development of doctrine, you do pass through
moments of unclarity. And those moments can be frightening, because you wonder
what is going on, and that is why many people are afraid at the moment. Is the
essence of our faith being challenged? There are moments where there are shifts
of understanding – not of doctrine, but of understanding – where we pass
through some clouds, some fog, in the search to understand. And that is where
we are at the moment.
In a way, is this a repetition of the debates
we had at the II Vatican Council about religious freedom, ecumenical and
interreligious dialogue?
Exactly.
It is
very interesting, if you go back to the XIX Century, you can see Pious IX
affirming all sorts of things that were contradicted by the Second Vatican
Council. Now some people would find that very alarming. But when you enter more
deeply into the fundamental doctrines of the Church, they have not changed. It
is rather a question that we have come to understand more deeply the
implications of our doctrines.
This
happened after the Second Vatican Council, and it is happening now.