This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Fr. Fouad Nakhla, a Syrian Jesuit who works with displaced people in Damascus. Fr. Fouad was in Portugal for a conference organised by JRS - the Jesuit Refugee Service.
Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista com o padre Fouad Nakhla, um jesuíta Sírio que trabalha com pessoas deslocadas em Damasco. O padre Fouad esteve em Portugal a convite da JRS - Serviço Jesuíta para os Refugiados. A reportagem que foi publicada no site da Renascença está aqui.
You told me you are from a small town North of
Damascus. What Church do you belong to?
I am
Greek Catholic, Melkite.
The town where you grew up, was it mainly
Christian?
No.
Around 10%.
So, more or less the same proportion as the
country.
Exactly.
When did you feel a vocation to become a
priest?
Actually,
after high school I went to Aleppo, and I did my studies in Aleppo. And there I
met the poor people. I was working and studying, and then I thought, well, what
should I do after that? And when I met the poor I began to think about my
future, what would make sense for me? I went to a Jesuit Center, Saint Vartan,
which is where JRS started in Aleppo - now it is destroyed - and I started to
work with the Jesuits, and there I thought maybe this way could bring more
meaning for me. So I went to spend one year with the Jesuits before entering
the society, in Homs, with Fr. Frans van der Lugt, who was killed in 2014, and
then I decided to join the society, so I joined in 2002.
At this time Syria was in peace, nobody could
imagine the Arab Spring, as it came to be known, what was life like at the
time? Especially between different religious communities?
We can
say that at that time we were all living together, there was no difference
between religion, between rites, or even between cities. We could find work.
Life was not easy, but it was stable.
You became a Jesuit, you did your training in
Paris... Where were you when everything started to crumble?
I left
Paris in 2012, and the last year was very hard, and then I went back to
Damascus in June, 2012.
So by now, things had already started. And you
had family in Syria?
Yes, for
sure. All my family was in Syria.
They were not among those who left? Were they
all safe?
They did
not leave the country, but they left the city for about 8 months. Then they
went back, and now they are safe.
When you went back, did you start working with displaced
people straight away?
Yes.
Because it was the main activity, and that was where I was most needed. So,
when I went back, in 2012 I went straight into the project, in Damascus, and I
was responsible for this project for two years, from 2012 to 2014, working in
the field. A lot of change happened over these two years.
So, what is the work of the Jesuits currently
in Damascus? Because we hear of them working with refugees, we imagine,
normally, in refugee camps, but in your case it is mostly people who fled from
other places in Syria to Damascus?
That's
right, because it is very difficult to work with IDPs without camps in the
city. It is very different from the work with the refugees in the camps. It was
very difficult for us in Syria to work in this situation, because we were all
affected, and all our team was affected also. JRS started in Syria in 2008 to
help with the Iraqi refugees, and it was very difficult for us to be in the
same situation and to encounter this suffering among our own population, seeing
our cities destroyed, it was very hard. So, when we started, we started with
people who were coming from those cities, which had been destroyed, but who
wanted to help their own people, they couldn't stand to not do anything. That
is how everything started in Syria, especially in Damascus.
The work
with IDPs started in Damascus. When the first displaced arrived, it was from a neighborhood
around Homs, and they were living in the streets. There was nowhere to go. When
we started it was with the distribution of sandwiches and water, with a small
team of volunteers. Then we started to organise this work. At the beginning it
was only with some donations from people in Syria who wanted to help, then it
grew, and grew, and we had many projects at this time. We had distribution for
food or non-food items, health support, and then we began to work more specifically
with women and children, running some workshops, and fortunately we had begun
JRS in 2008, so in 2012 we had the structure to help them further.
Actually,
at the moment, we have only one project for the psycho-social support for the
children. We work mainly with children who are not attending school, but now
most of them are going to school, but they had been away for two or three
years, so they don't have the capacity to follow. So what we do is help them to
catch up and to continue with their studies.
And you work with people from all communities?
Since
the beginning we have been helping people without asking where they are coming
from. We seek out the suffering people and we help them. That is what we do.
Speaking of the children, this has been going
on now for almost 8 years. We have now had a whole generation of children who
have not known peace. What does this mean for the future of Syria?
I think
this is the most difficult situation that we have. The destruction of the
cities... They can be rebuilt. But for the children who have now known anything
other than war and violence, that is more difficult.
We have
two groups of children. The children who grew up in the city, in the country,
who suffered a lot, being displaced. They have a lot of trauma. And most of
them have no education, they were out of school for many years, and they grew
up with this situation. They have to work. Most of the children we are working
with are working, they have jobs, sometimes very risky jobs, so they have to
deal with that. Somehow they grew up too early, they take the responsibility
for their family, even if they are only 10 or 11, and they try to cope with all
of this.
The
second group is the children who grew up in the camps. I don't have details
about that, but I think it is also a very hard situation. They have lost
contact with the country, with the cities, so they don't even know their cities
from before. So for both groups it will be very hard for the future. And we all
know that the future of the country depends on those children. What we are
doing now is trying to build the future through those children.
This work is, obviously, so important. Does the
regime help you? Do they let you work and not bother you? What is the
relationship?
What we
do is to help people, and since we are helping people we are not taking any
position. That is why we can continue to work until now.
I asked about what this means for the future of
Syria, how about for the Church? Has it affected vocations for example?
I don't
have statistics, but even before the crisis the vocations were already in
crisis. The numbers of people wanting to join the church were already very
small. I think it is the same now. I think we have noticed some improvement in
that respect, over the past two or three years, but it is still very timid, in
terms of numbers of people wanting to join religious societies or the church.
And
then, many of the Christians have already left the country. The percentage now
is not the same as it was.
Do you have reliable figures?
No.
Many Christians lived in and around Damascus
and Aleppo, which are now fully controlled by the regime. As you said, many
others have left. There are many still living in areas dominated by the Kurdish
led Syrian Democratic Front. Do you have contact with them?
We have
some contacts, because in the East of Syria, in this region controlled by the
Kurds, we have some contacts... Well, life is difficult for everyone,
everywhere. The conditions are different from area to area, but I can say that
most of the Syrians inside the country now are in need, and they are suffering
a lot. It is not an easy life. Now it is becoming safer, but still, the prices
are very high, and there are a lot of challenges.
The Christians I have spoken to in the SDF
controlled area speak of a project for Syria which would see decentralization,
each community having a say, including the Christians... It seems that most of
the anti-regime opposition has been defeated, and the regime and the SDF will
emerge at the end. They have refrained from attacking each other, mostly, do
you think there may be a conflict in the future, between them, or will they
manage to work out an agreement for peace?
It is
very hard to estimate and to imagine what things will be like in the future,
because in this situation there is a lot of misunderstanding, and a lot of
coming and going... One day you are friends and the next day you are not, so it
is a little bit difficult to imagine.
But what
I really believe is that if we want to build a new future for Syria, we can't
do it in a federal way. I believe that we can build a future if we keep the
unity of the Syrian people and the country. How it will be done, if it is
possible or not, I don't know. I don't know what the future holds, but this is
what we believe and we are working for that.
Do you have brothers and sisters?
Yes.
I know that before the war, at least, families
with only one child were not required to do military service. Did you?
I would
have had to do it, but I didn't, because I joined the Jesuits.
But your brothers?
Yes, of
course.
During the war?
I am the
youngest, so they did theirs before, in 1991 and 1998.
The idea that we have in the west is that most
of the Christians support the regime, in these conflicts that there have been.
There are exceptions, I have spoken to a few, but most tend to be guardedly in
favour of the regime. Is this a correct perception?
It is
always very hard to generalise. But as a Jesuit and as JRS, we are always
outside of these positions. We are not in favour or against, we are with the
suffering people, and we are working for that. That is our position. But still,
it is very hard to generalise.
When I asked you about a possible conflict with
the SDF, you said it was hard to guess the future. But now that it seems like
most of ISIS has been eliminated, and even the FSA, and Al-Qaeda linked groups
have been pushed away and are now in areas mostly controlled by Turkey... How
do you see the future for Syria now? Is it looking better than it was a few
years ago?
I don't
know how to answer this question, it is too hard.
Al-Qaeda
and Isis, these are ideologies. They are not only groups, they are ideologies.
They could be defeated, for a while, but they are ideologies. If we don't work
on the root of these ideologies, it is useless. And we can see what has
happened. Al-Qaeda was defeated in Afghanistan, for a while, but the ideology is
still around, and it becomes more and more general.
So it is
not white and black... You have to be more delicate on this kind of position.
So we have seen them being militarily defeated,
but your concern is that the ideology remains among some of the people.
Yes, and
it is easily reignited. That is why it is so difficult.
I
believe in peace for Syria, and we are all working for that, and it is only
possible if we work for reconciliation with people. Because used to live
together, and we can live together again. That is what I think, and what I
believe. But it is only possible if we start to work for reconciliation.
You did a Master's in Conflict Resolution,
which I imagine is very useful... Can there be reconciliation without
forgiveness?
Forgiveness
comes at the end, it is a process, it doesn't just happen. It could come at the
end, and there are a lot of steps before forgiveness, especially forgiveness in
politics, which is not something very usual. So that is why I think we have to
start working for reconciliation as soon as possible, hoping that at the end we
will reach some kind of forgiveness, otherwise it will be too late.
Speaking of forgiveness, is the understanding
of forgiveness and its implications, the same among different religious
communities?
During
this crisis we have seen that what brings people together is not words, but the
suffering, the pain, and when people meet each other and realise they are
suffering as much as me, if not more, that makes the difference, and that makes
me see the other as a Human Being, not as an enemy, or just another person, no,
it is somebody who can suffer, and who suffered more than me, possibly.
Experience can talk, more than words. Words can't do anything. We can make all
the sermon's possible about forgiveness and love, etc., but if we are not
experiencing that, it is not possible.
When the USA bombed military targets in
Damascus, recently, there was a joint statement from the Patriarchs of the
Christian Churches in Syria. Is it fair to say that the leadership of the
different communities have the same position in their vision of Syrian and
outside interference?
I don't
know how to answer that. But what we can say is that it is not fair to bomb in
this way. Whatever the situation. And it is not right.
The
problem in Syria is that now the crisis is no longer a Syrian crisis, and that
makes all the people angry.
Was it ever just a Syrian crisis? There was
always outside interference, no?
But now
it is too much. It is very harmful to see that everybody is bombing and they
don't care about people's lives. People are dying everywhere, and life has
meaning on all sides, and bombing in this way is not fair.
The division of Christian voices, is this a
problem?
We don't
feel that Christians are divided.
Sure,
there are many rites, but we are all Christians. It is not the divisions which
matter.
Now,
what we have to do is to help the Christians to be part of the country, and not
outsiders. That could help for unity in the future, and that could help bring
them to have a role in this country.
So on the ground one does not notice this
division among the different traditions?
Actually
no. We have many centers and churches around, and we receive people from all
rites. We don't ask, it’s not a question that matters in the country, because
we are used to this, to being very different. It is somehow difficult, but also
very rich. We enjoy it. When you have seven different masses, in different
rites, it can be confusing, but for us it is very rich and wonderful.
What do you do among the Jesuits? Do you
celebrate one rite?
Actually
we have the privilege to celebrate all the rites, as Jesuits. It is a great and
very beautiful privilege. I am ordained in the Melkite rite, but I can
celebrate in Maronite, or in Copt, or in Syriac and in each church, so we have
this privilege.
All Jesuits, or just in the Middle East?
I think
in the Middle East. I have no idea if others can do the same, but at least we
can.
 |
| Fr. Frans van der Lugt |
You mentioned Fr. Frans van der Lugt, Fr. Paolo
Dall'Oglio, as well... What do these names mean to you?
Well,
for Fr. Frans van der Lugt... He is a model for all of us. His example to
choose to stay with the people who were suffering most, until the end, and to
share their lives until his death, for me, personally and, I think, for all the
Jesuits in the region, is a model, a big witness for us.
His
life, and his death, give us a lot of strength to continue, and also a lot of
hope, to continue and to believe that even among suffering and the darkest of
situations, life is more powerful and God is present everywhere. That has
helped us a lot.
Paulo
Dall'Oglio is also a big voice, and also one of us. The first mission of his
monastery, Mar Moussa, is to promote peace and dialogue, and it is still going
until now.
Has their death and example given fruit for
relations among communities?
For
sure! And very often we meet people who we don't know, and they talk about Fr.
Frans, his example and his way. Some new him, some didn't, but only heard about
him. So we have a lot of testimonies and a lot of people are talking about him
and his life.
For us,
Fr. Van der Lugt is still alive, so many people talk about him, we feel that he
is still with us. Because his life continues to inspire our life.
