"The Syriac people in Syria are not happy with the regime"

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Johan Cosar, a Swiss born syriac Christian who fought against the Islamic State. English is not Johan's first language, some of the answers have been edited for clarity. The published news story, in Portuguese, can be read here.

Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista com Johan Cosar, um cristão siríaco, nascido na Suíça, que combateu o Estado Islâmico. O inglês não é a primeira língua de Johan, por isso algumas das respostas foram ligeiramente editadas, por uma questão de clareza. A reportagem, em português, pode ser lida aqui.

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You did your military service in Switzerland? 

Yes, like any other Swiss.

And did you enjoy it?

Actually, the first days I wasn't that happy. But as the weeks went by I enjoyed it more. I took it like a new education, a new challenge, and at the end one of my instructors, who had really motivated me, I think he saw the leadership I had in me, and he captured it and cultivated it. So that is why in the end I decided to continue and I signed a five year contract as a sergeant. 

What was your specialty? 

Mountain infantry and local combat, small special forces, if you'd like. 

Did it ever cross your mind that you might ever need to use that training in the Middle East?

No, not at all. I was so far from the Middle East, even if I do have roots in the Middle East there was no reason to think about it. So, in 2011 I finished my military duty, in November, and around that time the first demonstrations began in Syria. You could see that something was going to happen. 

Your roots are in Turkey?

My father was born in Syria, but my mother is from South East Turkey, but very close to each other, separated by only a small border line. 

Was the Syriac identity and culture present in your education? Did you speak Syriac at home?

Yes, of course. 

I was talking about this with some friends just a few days ago. I had the great opportunity to grow up in two big cultures. One, the Middle East culture, especially the Syriac/Assyrian culture, where all the civilizations came from. 

And, of course, at home – especially my father – was pressuring us to not forget our own roots, and not to be ashamed of them, because you can be good for no other culture if you deny your own. So, at home, still today, we speak Syriac, and I have one brother and one sister, and many cousins, and we don't regret or deny our culture. The whole family is connected this way.

But at the same time I had a Swiss education in Switzerland, we had a good education and the great opportunity to have a good education. So I grew up with two cultures and this made me very happy and very cultured. 

What is that made you first go to Syria?

My father had been involved in fighting for the rights of our people for a long time. And by going there and back he kept mentioning what was going on there, and pressing me to go and see what was happening. 

I finally decided to go in 2011, to report in a free-lance way, because everybody was talking about Syria from outside Syria, and that is a big mistake, talking about something that you can't see, and that you are not involved in, just from seeing and listening from outside, is a big mistake. Especially since my people were there. I had people who could finally achieve something, after 2000 years. I thought "let's try this trip, go in, and achieve something good for my people too". 

So that is why I decided to leave Switzerland, for around six months, reporting what was happening in Syria from inside. I made some reports for friends in radio and newspapers. But things didn't go like I'd planned. 

What was your first idea when you began to see the first signs of the Arab Spring?

Hope, of course. And helping the people. 

I have had much contact with Christians from Syria, mostly from Damascus, Aleppo, and so on, and they tend to be very much pro-regime, or at least against the rebels. But that is not the universal reality. The Christians from Qamishli maybe saw this with hope that they could get more rights?

I think that even the Syriac Christians in Damascus, Homs and Aleppo, right now, think like we do, but they can't express their own opinions, for one reason, because around Aleppo, Homs and Damascus there is only the regime, no other forces and no other solution. In Northeast Syria there was the Syrian regime, there was ISIS, there were jihadists and us. So the people could choose. 

Are you including the Free Syrian Army as jihadists?

At the beginning, no. At the beginning I was one of those who appreciated what they were doing. But after we started seeing them chant Allahu Akhbar after every attack, I realised this was going to change and become something else. 

The Syriac people in Syria are not happy with the regime. They are controlled. It's a fake protection, protection under the name of being controlled. For our people, at the moment, if you have to choose between ISIS and the regime, or between the revolutionaries of this time and the regime, of course they are going to choose the regime, because the others have nothing to offer them, they are chopping off heads, forcing people to leave their homes, not accepting their culture or their religion... It's an easy decision. 

But if the regime could give us – which isn't going to happen – the chance to go there and to present ourselves and give the people a choice...

This is the difference between North-eastern Syria and other places. I am sure, absolutely sure, that the Christians do not see the Assad regime as their saviour or protector anymore, because they saw what happened. Where was the regime in Al-Qaritain? In Qunaitra? In all the places where ISIS came in, made mass destruction and left? Where was the regime in the Khabour area? In Hassekah? 

I think that in 8 years of war the people opened their eyes, they are not blind anymore.

So you were in Syria when something happened to your father…

[Johan’s father was kidnapped by regime agents, who then told the family that he had died in custody, although they never provided the family with a body]

I was in Syria when my father was kidnapped. We met each other the day before. It was not the main reason for me to go to Syria or to stay in Syria. Of course, the love I had for my father, and how much we were attached to each other, is unbelievable, because we were like friends, even in this movement. 

But that was not the main reason he and I were there. It's a cause, a purpose, that is what brought us there and made me stay there. 

Do you believe he is still alive? 

I do. It is still a matter of 50/50. As long as we don't have a sure answer we keep up the hope. I can't say if he is dead or alive, so let's keep it like this.

What year was he kidnapped? 

August 12th, 2013.

So by that time you were already in Syria full time?

Yes.

And you were already involved with the military aspect?

Not that much... I started to be involved one month later, with training. So it was the very beginning of everything at that time. 

So in 2013 you began training, is that when the Syriac Military Council began to form?

The SMC officialised in January 2013, but in practical terms, in starting to form and organise itself, it started in August and September.

When you began with the training, were you aware you were breaking Swiss law?

At the beginning I didn't even think about it. I saw the state of emergency we were in and I didn't think about it. When you see the jihadists coming, very close to you, when you see people are being kidnapped, abducted, and killed, from the groups very close to you, you don't think about laws. 

What was the state of the people you were training? Did any of them have any military experience, or were they beginning from zero?

I had people who were veterans from the Assad regime, but it was like training somebody from zero. Because the military education I had was very different from theirs. So you can say that all the people I trained was from zero, because giving them a Western training is like teaching them a new language. 

When does the Syriac Military Council begin to be involved in actual conflict?

Our first session, about 1 month, was in October 2013. 

Already allied with the Kurds?

Yes. 

Were the YPG better prepared?

YPG were, of course, better prepared. They are old fighters. But we reached their level of preparation very well. 

Did they respect the Syriac fighters?

Of course, very much. They had very high respect for us. The Syriac Military Council is still very well respected by the YPG and other military forces because at that time that I was there fighting with them they could see how ready we are for everything, so there is great respect of the Kurds for the Syriacs. It is not only about the military forces, there is a lot of respect about what we are. 

Because traditionally, over the past 100 years, the Syriac and the Assyrian people have not been a fighting people. Was it difficult to convince people to take up weapons?

100 years ago we were not, but 2000 years ago we were. We tried to take back that feeling. 

It wasn't that hard. The most difficult thing was to convince them that the we were in the wrong status to begin with. That was the main difficulty, to change the minds of the people, not just making them fight, but to fight for what? 

You can bring people during a war and let them fight, that is easy, but if they don't know what they are fighting for, that is your main problem. One day you will stop fighting ISIS, and then? You have about 1000 people, with military training... If they don't have any goals they can turn against you, they become a threat, but if they are educated, if they have a goal, if they are really focused on a purpose, on a way, it becomes much easier. But if you have 1000 people who are just fighting, they become like a gang after that. 

Which we see in several places in the world. So what is that goal?

At the beginning it was just to have our own rights, to be recognised as a people, with our culture, our religion, our language, like any other people, and like indigenous people of Syria, not just a minority, because we are not a minority in Syria. There are more than three million Christians in Syria, more than Alawites, more than Kurds. So we are not a minority in Syria, we are not a minority in the Middle East, we are indigenous. This is our place. 

The main goal was that. We never wanted to create a new nation, anything like a Kurdistan, or for us a Mesopotamia... Just to be recognised as a people in the place where we were, that was our main goal. 

So when do you change from training officer and actually go and fight on the front lines?

Very fast. After starting training in October, I was part of assault groups in December.

And here you were facing ISIS?

No, at that time we were facing Al-Nusra. After that came ISIS.

When you are on the ground fighting, is there a difference between fighting ISIS or al-Nusra?

Of course. Fighting al-Nusra was... I won't say easier, because they are very fanatical, full of drugs and therefore harder to take down, because it was like fighting a non-person, no fear, no hunger, no cold in the winter... Because they were full of drugs. And they attacked in mass, 50, 60 or 70 people. 

ISIS is different. It is an ideological movement, supported by many nations, so more professional. And you saw what they did, so it was more difficult to fight them. Especially because of the equipment they had, it wasn't normal... The technological equipment they had, the tunnel systems, the IED systems, things you can't even imagine, and these are things that came from big nations, and one of them is Turkey. 

If you were captured by Al-Nusra, what would they do to you? 

Cut off my head. 

So in that sense no difference between ISIS and al-Nusra...

No difference, it was the same. 

Obviously you were in dangerous situations all the time. Were you ever in situations where you thought, "that's it for me?"

There was one where we were going to patrol a village, myself and three YPG fighters. It was a recon group, so we were going to the village, see what was going on there and return to the assault groups and prepare the assault. 

The four of us went, and according to the report, the village was empty, no al-Nusra. When we were there of course we were walking next to each other, and unfortunately the village was, in fact, full of al-Nusra.

This was 2013, we didn't have any night vision goggles, radios, operation rooms. We just had one radio for each group to connect to the others. So when we were walking another patrol from al-Nusra was walking towards us, but it was so dark, and so foggy, that we didn't see each other. 

I was the one on the far-right. I touched the shoulder of the one on the right of the other group. Our shoulders touched and I jumped. We understood that we were from opposing groups...

Because of the good training I had I always held my weapon in front of me, not on my shoulder, and when I realised that they were al-Nusra I jumped one step back and one to the left, and I started shooting.

I heard the guy on my left get hit by a bullet. 

Then we tried to escape, but we were in this village, and we were about 500 meters in the desert, with no orientation, in the darkness and in the fog, alone. I lost my other three colleagues. One was martyred, but the problem is that all the village suddenly realised that something had happened there, and they were all al-Nusra, and they started to search for us. I don't know how I escaped. I walked in the desert, I didn't even know what direction I was walking in, because of all the confusion and the fog, but fortunately we managed to go in the right direction, and we all survived, except the one who was killed at the beginning. 

That was one time when I really thought, OK, I'm done...

You were there and fought against ISIS. To see the declaration of their territorial defeat, what did that feel like? 

Territorially it's done, but it's not over. I'm not celebrating. It's a good thing to give hope to the people, territorially, so they can start a new life, a new education, a new future with better prospects, but the war is not over. 

Of course there is a risk of sleeper cells and more terrorist activity, but when you say the war is not over, are you also thinking about Turkey and the regime?

I think so, yes. 

The war is not over because until now it was a war of militias, now the big war will start, between the Sunni and Shia factions. 

You were there for a long time. Do you believe the Federation and this democratic project will be able to survive in the long run?

I think so, yes. I believe it will. Because it is the only way to make sure minorities survive. The policy is based on minorities, not on the idea of one family, one nation. With the one family, one nation policy you can see what happened. Giving hope to the minorities is creating a new life for people, it is making Sunnis and Shia live together, Muslims and Christians live together, Jews and Muslims living together. I think that it is a big example for democracy and a new life in harmony together. It has to survive, if not the Middle East will be a disaster for another thousand years. We won't come out of this war for another thousand years.

When did you decide to return to Switzerland, and why?

My first trip back to Switzerland, after many years in Syria was in 2015. Why? Because I had to face this trial. 

By then you had already been warned that you were in trouble back home...

I had the possibility to come back, because before it was not possible for me to leave. I left illegaly, I had a lot of difficulty to leave the KRG [Iraqi Kurdistan], because I had entered from Turkey. I used fake papers to enter the KRG, then I used my Swiss Passport, then I didn't have a stamp to leave, so it was very difficult.

But when you were in Syria did anyone from Switzerland contact you...

No. I heard from the newspapers.

So obviously they were keeping an eye on you...

Of course, yes. More than one. 

You came back, and what did the Swiss authorities say?

I was stopped in Switzerland, and of course they interrogated me, and they told me they had to open a military case against me, because I broke this and that rule. But nothing bad, so I was not being treated as a criminal. At many of the places I was going around, the police and so on, they were looking at me as a good guy, who did a good thing.

At the trial that we had at the end of February they honoured my action, even though they gave me a punishment. We appealed, and so the trial will continue.

So it was just a fine?

Yes, around 500 dollars. But we appealed on grounds of principle. 

Have there been Swiss who went to fight with ISIS who came back as well?

Yes, but they were tried for small things.

Are they back in Switzerland?

Yes.

What is it like, thinking that one day you could be walking in Zurich and bump into a guy who had been fighting for ISIS?

It's a big mess for Switzerland. A big mess.

I keep myself protected. I know how to move, when I go anywhere, I know how to watch myself, but the other people... It's a problem.

Your face must have been everywhere now because of this trial. Does it worry you in terms of safety, reprisals?

No. Myself, personally, no. I am not worried, I am not scared, but I take precautions. Like everyone in Europe must, because you don't know when some sleeper cell in ISIS will shoot, cut or bomb... 

You know ISIS better than pretty much anybody else in Switzerland. Have you had any requests for cooperation? To prevent terrorist attacks?

No. I was asked to go to some conferences, but until now I have kept myself far away from these things. I want to finish my trial in a clean way and then we'll see. 

In 2015 you came back, and since then you haven't returned to Syria?

I have been to Iraq.

But were you involved in any fighting in Iraq?

No, no fighting.

So you continue to be very active in the Syriac cause...

All the time. I can't leave what I started. 

You were in Syria for about three years fighting. Did you leave your job here in Switzerland?

No, I was a professional soldier. I went as soon as I finished my contract with the army. 

So now you need to start a new life?

Being involved in the organisation we have now in Iraq is my full-time occupation.

Are you married?

Thank God, no. 

Are you more hopeful for the future of your people now? 

Yes, of course. More hopeful and with brighter prospects for the future. The people we were involved with gained strength from seeing ISIS being defeated territorially. For the Syrian people that is a huge victory. 

You fought side by side with the YPG. And you said they respected the Syriacs. Now that ISIS is defeated, YPG is still the big player in the region. Do you trust them?

I trust them, like they trust me. But it is politics. I trust the people who represent the Kurds, and their idea. I trust their idea, and I respect the idea. I don't follow the people. If they keep to their idea and follow it, to do something for all the peoples there, I will trust them. If they are going to change their idea they will be betraying themselves, more than me. 

Were you ever frustrated or surprised that there were more Syriacs like you from Europe going to fight with your people?

No. I was happier to see the Syriacs inside Syria fight. The main problem was to convince them to change their mentality, not to bring them to war. So I was really happy to see all the influence we had and the young people joining the SMC, because they trusted what we were doing. We were not obsessed with bringing people from outside. If you come by yourself you are welcome, but we were pushing for the local fighters, because those are the people who are going to stay. 

It's a little bit like the volunteers of the YPG. They came in their thousands. How many are still in Syria? They left. If we had a thousand Syriac youths and then leaving, it doesn't make sense. We were looking for a long-term, strategical commitment. 

"The cities can be rebuilt. But children who have known nothing but war, that’s more difficult"

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Fr. Fouad Nakhla, a Syrian Jesuit who works with displaced people in Damascus. Fr. Fouad was in Portugal for a conference organised by JRS - the Jesuit Refugee Service.

Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista com o padre Fouad Nakhla, um jesuíta Sírio que trabalha com pessoas deslocadas em Damasco. O padre Fouad esteve em Portugal a convite da JRS - Serviço Jesuíta para os Refugiados. A reportagem que foi publicada no site da Renascença está aqui.

You told me you are from a small town North of Damascus. What Church do you belong to?

I am Greek Catholic, Melkite.

The town where you grew up, was it mainly Christian?

No. Around 10%.

So, more or less the same proportion as the country.

Exactly.

When did you feel a vocation to become a priest?

Actually, after high school I went to Aleppo, and I did my studies in Aleppo. And there I met the poor people. I was working and studying, and then I thought, well, what should I do after that? And when I met the poor I began to think about my future, what would make sense for me? I went to a Jesuit Center, Saint Vartan, which is where JRS started in Aleppo - now it is destroyed - and I started to work with the Jesuits, and there I thought maybe this way could bring more meaning for me. So I went to spend one year with the Jesuits before entering the society, in Homs, with Fr. Frans van der Lugt, who was killed in 2014, and then I decided to join the society, so I joined in 2002.

At this time Syria was in peace, nobody could imagine the Arab Spring, as it came to be known, what was life like at the time? Especially between different religious communities?

We can say that at that time we were all living together, there was no difference between religion, between rites, or even between cities. We could find work. Life was not easy, but it was stable.

You became a Jesuit, you did your training in Paris... Where were you when everything started to crumble?

I left Paris in 2012, and the last year was very hard, and then I went back to Damascus in June, 2012.

So by now, things had already started. And you had family in Syria?

Yes, for sure. All my family was in Syria.

They were not among those who left? Were they all safe?

They did not leave the country, but they left the city for about 8 months. Then they went back, and now they are safe.

When you went back, did you start working with displaced people straight away?

Yes. Because it was the main activity, and that was where I was most needed. So, when I went back, in 2012 I went straight into the project, in Damascus, and I was responsible for this project for two years, from 2012 to 2014, working in the field. A lot of change happened over these two years.

So, what is the work of the Jesuits currently in Damascus? Because we hear of them working with refugees, we imagine, normally, in refugee camps, but in your case it is mostly people who fled from other places in Syria to Damascus?

That's right, because it is very difficult to work with IDPs without camps in the city. It is very different from the work with the refugees in the camps. It was very difficult for us in Syria to work in this situation, because we were all affected, and all our team was affected also. JRS started in Syria in 2008 to help with the Iraqi refugees, and it was very difficult for us to be in the same situation and to encounter this suffering among our own population, seeing our cities destroyed, it was very hard. So, when we started, we started with people who were coming from those cities, which had been destroyed, but who wanted to help their own people, they couldn't stand to not do anything. That is how everything started in Syria, especially in Damascus.

The work with IDPs started in Damascus. When the first displaced arrived, it was from a neighborhood around Homs, and they were living in the streets. There was nowhere to go. When we started it was with the distribution of sandwiches and water, with a small team of volunteers. Then we started to organise this work. At the beginning it was only with some donations from people in Syria who wanted to help, then it grew, and grew, and we had many projects at this time. We had distribution for food or non-food items, health support, and then we began to work more specifically with women and children, running some workshops, and fortunately we had begun JRS in 2008, so in 2012 we had the structure to help them further.

Actually, at the moment, we have only one project for the psycho-social support for the children. We work mainly with children who are not attending school, but now most of them are going to school, but they had been away for two or three years, so they don't have the capacity to follow. So what we do is help them to catch up and to continue with their studies.

And you work with people from all communities?

Since the beginning we have been helping people without asking where they are coming from. We seek out the suffering people and we help them. That is what we do.

Speaking of the children, this has been going on now for almost 8 years. We have now had a whole generation of children who have not known peace. What does this mean for the future of Syria?

I think this is the most difficult situation that we have. The destruction of the cities... They can be rebuilt. But for the children who have now known anything other than war and violence, that is more difficult.

We have two groups of children. The children who grew up in the city, in the country, who suffered a lot, being displaced. They have a lot of trauma. And most of them have no education, they were out of school for many years, and they grew up with this situation. They have to work. Most of the children we are working with are working, they have jobs, sometimes very risky jobs, so they have to deal with that. Somehow they grew up too early, they take the responsibility for their family, even if they are only 10 or 11, and they try to cope with all of this.

The second group is the children who grew up in the camps. I don't have details about that, but I think it is also a very hard situation. They have lost contact with the country, with the cities, so they don't even know their cities from before. So for both groups it will be very hard for the future. And we all know that the future of the country depends on those children. What we are doing now is trying to build the future through those children.

This work is, obviously, so important. Does the regime help you? Do they let you work and not bother you? What is the relationship?

What we do is to help people, and since we are helping people we are not taking any position. That is why we can continue to work until now.

I asked about what this means for the future of Syria, how about for the Church? Has it affected vocations for example?

I don't have statistics, but even before the crisis the vocations were already in crisis. The numbers of people wanting to join the church were already very small. I think it is the same now. I think we have noticed some improvement in that respect, over the past two or three years, but it is still very timid, in terms of numbers of people wanting to join religious societies or the church.

And then, many of the Christians have already left the country. The percentage now is not the same as it was.

Do you have reliable figures?

No.

Many Christians lived in and around Damascus and Aleppo, which are now fully controlled by the regime. As you said, many others have left. There are many still living in areas dominated by the Kurdish led Syrian Democratic Front. Do you have contact with them?

We have some contacts, because in the East of Syria, in this region controlled by the Kurds, we have some contacts... Well, life is difficult for everyone, everywhere. The conditions are different from area to area, but I can say that most of the Syrians inside the country now are in need, and they are suffering a lot. It is not an easy life. Now it is becoming safer, but still, the prices are very high, and there are a lot of challenges.

The Christians I have spoken to in the SDF controlled area speak of a project for Syria which would see decentralization, each community having a say, including the Christians... It seems that most of the anti-regime opposition has been defeated, and the regime and the SDF will emerge at the end. They have refrained from attacking each other, mostly, do you think there may be a conflict in the future, between them, or will they manage to work out an agreement for peace?

It is very hard to estimate and to imagine what things will be like in the future, because in this situation there is a lot of misunderstanding, and a lot of coming and going... One day you are friends and the next day you are not, so it is a little bit difficult to imagine.

But what I really believe is that if we want to build a new future for Syria, we can't do it in a federal way. I believe that we can build a future if we keep the unity of the Syrian people and the country. How it will be done, if it is possible or not, I don't know. I don't know what the future holds, but this is what we believe and we are working for that.

Do you have brothers and sisters?

Yes.

I know that before the war, at least, families with only one child were not required to do military service. Did you?

I would have had to do it, but I didn't, because I joined the Jesuits.

But your brothers?

Yes, of course.

During the war?

I am the youngest, so they did theirs before, in 1991 and 1998.

The idea that we have in the west is that most of the Christians support the regime, in these conflicts that there have been. There are exceptions, I have spoken to a few, but most tend to be guardedly in favour of the regime. Is this a correct perception?

It is always very hard to generalise. But as a Jesuit and as JRS, we are always outside of these positions. We are not in favour or against, we are with the suffering people, and we are working for that. That is our position. But still, it is very hard to generalise.

When I asked you about a possible conflict with the SDF, you said it was hard to guess the future. But now that it seems like most of ISIS has been eliminated, and even the FSA, and Al-Qaeda linked groups have been pushed away and are now in areas mostly controlled by Turkey... How do you see the future for Syria now? Is it looking better than it was a few years ago?

I don't know how to answer this question, it is too hard.

Al-Qaeda and Isis, these are ideologies. They are not only groups, they are ideologies. They could be defeated, for a while, but they are ideologies. If we don't work on the root of these ideologies, it is useless. And we can see what has happened. Al-Qaeda was defeated in Afghanistan, for a while, but the ideology is still around, and it becomes more and more general.

So it is not white and black... You have to be more delicate on this kind of position.

So we have seen them being militarily defeated, but your concern is that the ideology remains among some of the people.

Yes, and it is easily reignited. That is why it is so difficult.

I believe in peace for Syria, and we are all working for that, and it is only possible if we work for reconciliation with people. Because used to live together, and we can live together again. That is what I think, and what I believe. But it is only possible if we start to work for reconciliation.

You did a Master's in Conflict Resolution, which I imagine is very useful... Can there be reconciliation without forgiveness?

Forgiveness comes at the end, it is a process, it doesn't just happen. It could come at the end, and there are a lot of steps before forgiveness, especially forgiveness in politics, which is not something very usual. So that is why I think we have to start working for reconciliation as soon as possible, hoping that at the end we will reach some kind of forgiveness, otherwise it will be too late.

Speaking of forgiveness, is the understanding of forgiveness and its implications, the same among different religious communities?

During this crisis we have seen that what brings people together is not words, but the suffering, the pain, and when people meet each other and realise they are suffering as much as me, if not more, that makes the difference, and that makes me see the other as a Human Being, not as an enemy, or just another person, no, it is somebody who can suffer, and who suffered more than me, possibly. Experience can talk, more than words. Words can't do anything. We can make all the sermon's possible about forgiveness and love, etc., but if we are not experiencing that, it is not possible.

When the USA bombed military targets in Damascus, recently, there was a joint statement from the Patriarchs of the Christian Churches in Syria. Is it fair to say that the leadership of the different communities have the same position in their vision of Syrian and outside interference?

I don't know how to answer that. But what we can say is that it is not fair to bomb in this way. Whatever the situation. And it is not right.

The problem in Syria is that now the crisis is no longer a Syrian crisis, and that makes all the people angry.

Was it ever just a Syrian crisis? There was always outside interference, no?

But now it is too much. It is very harmful to see that everybody is bombing and they don't care about people's lives. People are dying everywhere, and life has meaning on all sides, and bombing in this way is not fair.

The division of Christian voices, is this a problem?

We don't feel that Christians are divided.

Sure, there are many rites, but we are all Christians. It is not the divisions which matter.

Now, what we have to do is to help the Christians to be part of the country, and not outsiders. That could help for unity in the future, and that could help bring them to have a role in this country.

So on the ground one does not notice this division among the different traditions?

Actually no. We have many centers and churches around, and we receive people from all rites. We don't ask, it’s not a question that matters in the country, because we are used to this, to being very different. It is somehow difficult, but also very rich. We enjoy it. When you have seven different masses, in different rites, it can be confusing, but for us it is very rich and wonderful.

What do you do among the Jesuits? Do you celebrate one rite?

Actually we have the privilege to celebrate all the rites, as Jesuits. It is a great and very beautiful privilege. I am ordained in the Melkite rite, but I can celebrate in Maronite, or in Copt, or in Syriac and in each church, so we have this privilege.

All Jesuits, or just in the Middle East?

I think in the Middle East. I have no idea if others can do the same, but at least we can.

Fr. Frans van der Lugt

You mentioned Fr. Frans van der Lugt, Fr. Paolo Dall'Oglio, as well... What do these names mean to you?

Well, for Fr. Frans van der Lugt... He is a model for all of us. His example to choose to stay with the people who were suffering most, until the end, and to share their lives until his death, for me, personally and, I think, for all the Jesuits in the region, is a model, a big witness for us.

His life, and his death, give us a lot of strength to continue, and also a lot of hope, to continue and to believe that even among suffering and the darkest of situations, life is more powerful and God is present everywhere. That has helped us a lot.

Paulo Dall'Oglio is also a big voice, and also one of us. The first mission of his monastery, Mar Moussa, is to promote peace and dialogue, and it is still going until now.

Has their death and example given fruit for relations among communities?

For sure! And very often we meet people who we don't know, and they talk about Fr. Frans, his example and his way. Some new him, some didn't, but only heard about him. So we have a lot of testimonies and a lot of people are talking about him and his life.

For us, Fr. Van der Lugt is still alive, so many people talk about him, we feel that he is still with us. Because his life continues to inspire our life.

Saydnaya: "We have no reason to believe mass hangings have stopped"

Lynn Maalouf

Full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Lynn Maalouf, from Amnesty International - Lebanon.

The news report, in Portuguese, can be found here. Amnesty's full report can be found here. 

Your report mentions that 13.000 people may have been executed. How did you calculate this number? Is there a margin of error, could the real number be even higher, or perhaps lower?

What we say is that the number could range between 5.000 up to 13.000, and this is based on an estimate, based on the information that we gathered during the course of the investigation.

Basically, what we did find out, from the interviews that we conducted, is a systematic process of extrajudicial killings that were happening once to twice every week. So we base our calculations on that information and on the information that every time there was a mass hanging it was for groups of between 20 and 60 people. That is how we reached this estimate of 5.000 up to 13.000 people who may have been killed.

We are calling for an independent investigation into these mass hangings to establish the facts.

How did you reach the people interviewed? Are they mostly people who fled Syria, or were the interviews conducted in Syria?

Amnesty International does not have access to Syria, we haven't been in there for quite a long time. So all of the interviews were conducted in Southern Turkey, mostly, and some in Europe and elsewhere.

So they are all based on interviews with people who fled Syria. All of them are either former detainees, there are also former judges, prison officials or prison guards who used to work at Saydnaya at the time that we recount the evidence, the findings that we have, as well as experts on detention and other organisations we collaborate with.

As far as you know, are these mass executions still going on?

We don't have any information about this. The information we have covers the period of 2011, going to 2015 and that is when some of the key witnesses giving us the information stopped working in Saydnaya prison stopped being there physically.

So we don't have any information that this is still going on, but what we do say is that we have no reason to believe that these hangings have stopped.

Living in Beirut, are you afraid of repercussions from the Syrian state or allies?

Amnesty International regional office started operating here this summer. We don't have any reason to... We haven't had any threats, so far, and there is no reason to stop the work that we are doing.

What we do is that we document these facts and then issue recommendations. Whether we issue it from Beirut or from London, it's the same. We do hope to engage with the relevant authorities to address the recommendations that we have in a meaningful way.

But other organisations before us have published reports that are more damning than this report and there have not been any security concerns that we are aware of.

As far as you know, is it only the Syrian Armed Forces that are involved, or is there also involvement of allied militias, as we know there are many fighting side by side with the army?

Now we are talking about violations that are taking place in Saydnaya, a Government controlled prison. We are saying that these systematic practices could not have happened without the knowledge of the highest levels of authority.

But as far as we know there aren't any militias operating in this prison, nor allies of the Syrian government operating there. But we are calling on the allies of the Syrian Government, namely Russia, Iran and now the United States, to exert any pressure they can on the Syrian government to allow independent monitors into the Syrian prisons.