Saydnaya: "We have no reason to believe mass hangings have stopped"

Lynn Maalouf

Full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Lynn Maalouf, from Amnesty International - Lebanon.

The news report, in Portuguese, can be found here. Amnesty's full report can be found here. 

Your report mentions that 13.000 people may have been executed. How did you calculate this number? Is there a margin of error, could the real number be even higher, or perhaps lower?

What we say is that the number could range between 5.000 up to 13.000, and this is based on an estimate, based on the information that we gathered during the course of the investigation.

Basically, what we did find out, from the interviews that we conducted, is a systematic process of extrajudicial killings that were happening once to twice every week. So we base our calculations on that information and on the information that every time there was a mass hanging it was for groups of between 20 and 60 people. That is how we reached this estimate of 5.000 up to 13.000 people who may have been killed.

We are calling for an independent investigation into these mass hangings to establish the facts.

How did you reach the people interviewed? Are they mostly people who fled Syria, or were the interviews conducted in Syria?

Amnesty International does not have access to Syria, we haven't been in there for quite a long time. So all of the interviews were conducted in Southern Turkey, mostly, and some in Europe and elsewhere.

So they are all based on interviews with people who fled Syria. All of them are either former detainees, there are also former judges, prison officials or prison guards who used to work at Saydnaya at the time that we recount the evidence, the findings that we have, as well as experts on detention and other organisations we collaborate with.

As far as you know, are these mass executions still going on?

We don't have any information about this. The information we have covers the period of 2011, going to 2015 and that is when some of the key witnesses giving us the information stopped working in Saydnaya prison stopped being there physically.

So we don't have any information that this is still going on, but what we do say is that we have no reason to believe that these hangings have stopped.

Living in Beirut, are you afraid of repercussions from the Syrian state or allies?

Amnesty International regional office started operating here this summer. We don't have any reason to... We haven't had any threats, so far, and there is no reason to stop the work that we are doing.

What we do is that we document these facts and then issue recommendations. Whether we issue it from Beirut or from London, it's the same. We do hope to engage with the relevant authorities to address the recommendations that we have in a meaningful way.

But other organisations before us have published reports that are more damning than this report and there have not been any security concerns that we are aware of.

As far as you know, is it only the Syrian Armed Forces that are involved, or is there also involvement of allied militias, as we know there are many fighting side by side with the army?

Now we are talking about violations that are taking place in Saydnaya, a Government controlled prison. We are saying that these systematic practices could not have happened without the knowledge of the highest levels of authority.

But as far as we know there aren't any militias operating in this prison, nor allies of the Syrian government operating there. But we are calling on the allies of the Syrian Government, namely Russia, Iran and now the United States, to exert any pressure they can on the Syrian government to allow independent monitors into the Syrian prisons.

"Christians need a safe zone under UN protection for at least 10 years"

The Patriarch in Fátima

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius Joseph III, of the Syriac Catholic Church. News story (in Portuguese) can be read here.

Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista ao Patriarca da Igreja Católica Siríaca. A reportagem pode ser lida aqui.

What brings you to Portugal?

This is my first visit to Portugal. I have wanted to make such a pilgrimage to Our Lady of Fátima for several years. We organised this trip for prayer, to pray to her for peace in the Middle East. I did the same thing three years ago when I organised another pilgrimage to Lourdes, in France. So it is a trip of hope, of renewed veneration to the Mother of the Lord, the Virgin Mary, whom we venerate very much in the East.

Is devotion to Our Lady of Fátima widespread among the faithful in your church?

Not really, not as much as to Our Lady of Lourdes, but we will work on it. We are finishing the first church dedicated to Our Lady of Fátima in Lebanon. Actually we, the Syriac Catholic Church, have also the first church dedicated to Our Lady of Fátima in Syria, which is in Damascus. It was dedicated forty years ago. So we try surely to spread the devotion to Our Lady of Fátima since hers was especially a message of peace, hope, penance and return to the Lord, which we very much appreciate in these times of darkness which surrounds all aspects of life in the Middle East, in particular Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.

Five years after the beginning of the war in Syria, how do you assess the current situation?

We are all devastated, especially by this hypocritical agenda of the Western politicians. They don't care for anything besides their own interests. I just read about the visit of the second ranking person in Saudi Arabia, the son of the present King, to France. He was welcomed with tremendous respect by the French President and everybody knows that these kind of relations are based on – it’s very sad to say – a Machiavellian agenda, for the interests of both countries, without thinking about the many infractions and retrograde regime which is not even accepted by the family of civilised nations because of the lack of respect for Human Rights.

We are so sad to see that we have been forgotten. Christian minorities have been living in the region for Millennia and we have been forgotten by the so called civilised Western nations. The same ones which pretend to protect the charter of human rights and democracy, equality and religious and civil liberties.

How often do you travel to Syria?

I was born in Syria. As you know, unlike his eminence Manuel III [Patriarch of Lisbon] who is a Patriarch merely in title, we as patriarchs of Eastern Churches are the heads of Churches sui iuris, so the Patriarch is a spiritual head and has to visit his flock, his church, wherever they exist.

So I was recently in Sweden for two weeks, to inquire about the situation of our emigrants, especially those who were forced to flee Syria and Iraq. It's not easy for us.

I usually travel at least once a month to Syria, but not to every spot in Syria. I am tied to Damascus, Homs and the Coast. The other regions, like the North-eastern region, Aleppo, Hassakeh, it is not possible for me to travel.

Your brother Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church survived an assassination attempt just one week ago. Are you constantly under threat?

I think we all, in the Middle East, live a kind of threat and we can't just say that we have to avoid those threats, or we won't fulfil our spiritual and pastoral duties. Of course, we were so sad to hear about that attempt, and I did call him, we spoke right after it, and we keep always in touch, we encourage each other, we try to do our best to fulfil our responsibilities.

In this occasion, his life was saved by the intervention of members of Sutoro, a Christian militia which works closely with the Kurds. Is there a place for Christian militias in Syria?

I do not agree with this terminology, saying that there are militias. There are Christian groups which want to defend their villages, their towns, because they did endure attacks by the Islamic State and those terrorists and many were killed or kidnapped or forced into Exodus. So we encourage our people to defend themselves within the legal army or security forces. We don't speak about militias which go out and fight others, like their neighbours, or take part in conflicts outside the areas where they live.

But in Iraq or in Syria, for example, it is not possible for the government or army to be everywhere, because the sectarian war has been going on and on for years, so the people have a duty to defend themselves. Both the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch and myself agree that we have to stand up to defend lives, families, women, children from being slaughtered like sheep in these savage attacks.

Therefore I am not talking about militias as they are usually described. We don't have militias, we have people who want to defend themselves, their houses and their villages.

Some Christian groups advocate for autonomy in majority Christian areas in Iraq and Syria, mainly in the Nineveh plains. What is your opinion on this?

Let's take each country separately. In Iraq there is no longer anywhere where our people can exist in dignity and liberty other than in a safe zone. There is no one description of what that safe zone would be. Usually one speaks about a kind of province, where Christians and minorities, in the Plain of Nineveh, could live together.

Still now, in Iraq, we have the Plain of Nineveh, where the majority are Sunni Arabs and minorities like Christians, Yazidis, Shabaks and Kurds are not accepted as citizens with full rights. They have been tolerated, so we have been talking about a kind of safe zone, like a province, or a zone which would be decentralized, that is, under the protection of the United Nations for at least about 10 years, until we find a way for real coexistence between various ethnic, confessional and religious groups.

So we are not talking about an autonomous region, this would be unrealistic. We are talking about a kind of safe zone either dependant on the central government in Baghdad, or on Kurdistan. Until now we don't know which of these will control the plain of Nineveh. But for humanitarian reasons we do need some kind of international protection, otherwise the Plain of Nineveh, which is the cradle of Christianity in Mesopotamia, will be empty and when it is empty it will not be for a period of time, but forever, because usually Christians and others don't feel safe when they are not accepted as full rights citizens by a majority which mixes religion and state. That is why we need this kind of international supervision or protection.

Patriarch Ignatius Joseph celebrates
mass in Fátima, with Syriac pilgrims

When ISIS really rose up and took Mosul and much of the Nineveh Plain, Kurds were the only ones who immediately resisted the jihadists and gave protection to the Christians. But since then I have also heard grumblings from some local Christians that the Kurds are really more interested in consolidating power than sharing it with Christians, Yazidis and other minorities. Your thoughts?

As you just said, Christians and other minorities had no other safe option than to get to Kurdistan, because Kurdistan was a nearby region where they could find refuge. The Islamic State fighters and others used to control all other areas.

Now, of course we all know that the Kurds want their own autonomous country, or territory. We will have to recognise that they have the right to have their own autonomous and independent region, or state. The problem is that many of those who are talking about this very delicate issue think that Kurds had to sacrifice themselves for others. It wasn't so simple. They were on the front line with the Islamic State fighters and they had to defend their own autonomous region, with a long front, about 800 kilometres, so it wasn't easy.

Now we don't know what will happen in the future, because we are talking about minority groups like Christians which, it is very sad to say, are not drawing the interest of the super powers or nations, especially of the Western World. So we have been left alone. Where to go? Baghdad has been almost half-emptied of its Christians, and we have no other option than the plain of Nineveh or Kurdistan. We need to go back to our motherland, the Plain of Nineveh, and to live peacefully with others.

So who is going to give us the assurance that we can live in equal rights with the majority? We need the help of the international community to tell the central government of Baghdad and the Kurdish government that these small communities, the minorities, have the right to live in their own land, with the dignity of human beings and they have to provide them with the conditions for a right to live in dignity.

This is in Iraq. In Syria we can't talk about an autonomous region, because Christians are, or were, spread in almost every spot in the country and we didn't have these kind of attacks against Christians as such, but because we have been left, in some areas, alone, and the army of the country could not help to defend everywhere, not only Christians, but also people from other religions or confessions who have been attacked.

Christians mostly feel that they have to be with their compatriots of other religions, and just focus on civil rights issues to build again a nation with equal citizenship amongst all, to build a civilised country for the future. So we try especially to explain to the international families, the tragedies of our people, especially the Christians, in Iraq, to help us stay in our land, and the first condition for that is to be given international protection.

Many people expected the conflict to spill over into Lebanon, but until now, things have been relatively peaceful. To what can we attribute this?

Lebanon, as you well know, has had its share of suffering and civil war in the 70's, late 80's and early 90's. So I think because the Lebanese learned that internal conflict is not going to help anyone and, therefore, they learned that they have to find a way to live together in a kind of peaceful manner and trying to stay far away from the regional conflicts, especially in Syria.

But, as you well know, the confessionalism and sectarianism, the hidden animosity between Sunnis and Shia, didn't help to keep Lebanon out of those regional conflicts. And in my opinion that is because you have a fear that if the Lebanese get involved in this kind of sectarian war it is not going to profit anyone, it will be very bad for everybody and, therefore, with the help of the international nations, either in the West or in the East – that means Europe, America and Russia – Lebanon was somehow spared this kind of conflict. But we still live in a kind of very tense situation, because of the interference from outside.

Most Western countries have grown suspicious of Russia and their interference in other countries, such as in Syria or in the Ukraine. But how do Christians in Syria and other regions, in your experience, see the intervention of Russia in the civil war? Do they see the Russians as liberators or aggressors?

I think most Christians, either in or outside of Syria, see in the military intervention by Russia a kind of deliverance, not only for Christian communities but also for the whole Syrian people, of all religions and confessions, because for the first three years, at least, there was no such intervention from Russia in Syria, we had mostly Western intervention, through the regional countries, Turkey and the Gulf States, supporting, financing and arming the so called opposition – and we still remember what Obama said about that opposition, that there was no moderate opposition – but for Machiavellian interests they kept hammering Syria and calling the Government illegitimate, while we see that it is recognised by the international community and the United Nations.

Until now, the agglomerate media of the West keep hammering on Syria and want to destroy the country, pretending that the cause of all evils is Bashar al-Assad, which is not true, and therefore, Christians saw, in the Russian intervention, a kind of salvation of Syria, because already Syria was half destroyed before the intervention of the Russian army. And although Russia, of course, have their own geopolitical interests, they have been more clear and transparent in helping the Syrian government and the Syrian people, because otherwise there would have been a hecatomb and who knows when it would have ended, because the whole conflict in Syria was based on confessionalism. It is a lie, what they used to say in the West, either in France, the USA or England, that it was a kind of popular rebellion against the dictatorship.

We know that there was a dictatorship, but what kind of alternative did we have in Syria? We had the alternative of the Islamic State. And there were lies spread that the Government created the Islamic State. It is a surreal lie, but this is the agglomerate media, they can very much manipulate the public opinion.

The group of Syriac pilgrims after mass in Fátima

The Pope was just in Armenia where he once again described the massacres of Armenians as genocide. But the victims were not only Armenians, were they?

We feel very close to the Armenian brothers and sisters, the Armenian people and Church, because we have been persecuted and killed and exposed to genocide like them, 100 years ago and many times before and after that.

You well know that what used to be called Asia Minor, present day Turkey, was well populated by Christian communities, either Greek, Armenian, Syriac, Assyrian... And now we can't anymore speak about a Christian presence, it is a very, very tiny minority left.

So we are the same, we feel the same as our Armenian brothers and sisters, because we have been not only decimated, we have been exposed to genocide. We don't exist anymore in Turkey... We have 10 to 20 thousand Syriacs, especially in the South and South Eastern region of Turkey. We had existed with important numbers, churches, monasteries, villages, and they don't exist anymore.

So we are very grateful to Pope Francis for having made this trip to be close to these people. We don't have a Syriac country, we don't have the huge numbers which lobby Western nations to think about us, but we still live in hope that the time will come when the international family will be closer to us and think about our survival, because we are left as the only communities which were very close to the primitive Church. Jesus, the blessed Mother, the apostles, they didn't speak Latin or Greek, they spoke Aramaic.

And I told the bishop of Leiria and Fátima that I would like to have also that verse of the gospel engraved in the new Basilica in Aramaic/Syriac, the language of Jesus and the Blessed Mother. I told him I'd send him the text. [A glass panel by Canadian artist Kerry Joe Kelly, in the Basilica of the Most Holy Trinity, in Fátima, is engraved with four biblical sentences in about 25 languages]

So this is our destiny, rather, it is our vocation, to be real martyrs, that is, witnesses to the gospel and also to shed our blood for Jesus.

Christians in the Middle East are divided into many different churches. Does this division weaken the Christian witness and voice, or is the diversity something to be valued?

I think we have to take it both ways.

Does it weaken? Surely it weakens. Because it is very sad to recall that in those regions where a Muslim majority has the rule, numbers are very important. The kind of rights of minorities are not the same as in civilised nations. Whatever they say, the best they can do is tolerate the existence of non-Muslim minorities. Therefore, when we are, let’s say, divided into more than one church, it is not seen as a richness for the majority.

For us, we say it is a richness, because of those traditions and the patrimony which go back to early Christianity and which enriches the Universal Church and even humanity. But therefore, especially in these times when we have this kind of fanaticism – not only attributed to the majority but it is a fact that the Muslim majority rely mostly on numbers, and as you know they have the notion of the Umma, the Islamic nation, from the Far East to the Far West they are all considered one nation, and this way they can, I think, blackmail the Western civilised countries and spread fear wherever they are, because of their numbers. Besides that you have also the oil resources and now the third element is the terrorism factor, they spread that fear among the civilised world.

So, again, being various churches, would be a richness if we were living in times where every human being would be respected, no matter the numbers or religion. But these times, where the majority wants to impose itself, it is a weakness.

How do you see Europe's response to the refugee crisis?

Since the beginning we have opposed the forced emigration for people or individuals. Especially for us it is a big threat to our survival, because the ones who emigrate do not return. Therefore, for us, migration is a very dangerous phenomenon.

The way European countries have handled this kind of migration was not the right way, because they didn't look at the roots of this migration, they instigated violence in Syria for the past five years, or more, and in Iraq they kept silent about the way the US handled the Iraqi question.

There we also see manifest hypocrisy and Machiavellianism in the way the European politicians handled that question. Because until the tragic death of Aylan, the little child, back in early September, they didn't care and they could find a way to keep the Syrian refugees, around two million of them, mostly in Turkey, with a kind of agreement between European countries and Turkey.

But after that tragic death, the media did talk about it and the European countries were kind of lost, they didn't have the right policies. We don't want that kind of migration based on forced and on sectarian wars. They should have done more to bring more peace to Syria and find a way for the Government of Syria and the opposition to find the best solution for the future. But we know the immediate geopolitical interests and now they have to face that kind of hundreds of thousands of migrants and they don't know how to handle this.

Patriarch Ignatius Joseph III and
D. António Marto, bishop of Leiria-Fátima

I think this is a kind of very wrong policies they followed. And we have said, since the beginning... It's not just the Patriarch being idealistic... We have said, since the beginning, please do not compare the situation in Syria to that in Egypt and Tunisia. In Syria the situation is much more complex, because we have ethnic, religious and confessional diversity, many minorities, and we have to find a way to stop the fighting, and whatever solution would be better than instigating that conflict.

But they have their own agenda. Since the beginning we have said that and now we are harvesting the results of these policies.

In regard to Eastern Catholic Churches, some complained that the Eastern Catholics were treated almost as second class citizens, due to issues such as the authority of Patriarchs outside of their traditional homelands, ordination of married clergy abroad, etc. Are things different with Francis?

There is no doubt that things have been changed, and they have to be changed gradually in a better understanding of the nature of Eastern traditions and the authority of Patriarchs. We keep telling the Holy See that Patriarchs are the head of their Churches and as such they have the right to take care and minister to their church communities wherever they are, be it in the Middle East or in the Western countries.

I think Pope Francis understands our grief and our needs very well, especially in these times where we have been threatened in our own survival in some of the countries in the Middle East, like Syria and Iraq, and we don't have any alternative but to follow our people and to give them the spiritual and pastoral ministry they need. Surely it is not going to be easy, but we keep fighting for this goal, because we think it is quintessential for our survival.

“Western silence on genocide against minorities in Iraq is shocking”

Sister Hanan Youssef

Full transcript of my interview with sister Hanan Youssef, of the Good Shepherd Sisters, who works with refugees in Lebanon. News item, in Portuguese, here.

Transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista à irmã Hanan Youssef, das Irmãs do Bom Pastor, que trabalha com refugiados no Líbano. A reportagem pode ser lida aqui.

You work in Lebanon. Are you Lebanese?

Yes, I am Lebanese. I was born in the South of Lebanon, near the border with Israel, but I had to leave when I was 8 years old, I couldn't go back, because Israel occupied this area for many years. After the liberation it was taken by Hezbollah. I never saw it again.

Now I am in the Upper North of Beirut, in a Shia Muslim area, but we also have Christians, Sunnis, Iraqi refugees, Syrian refugees, a mixed population.

Are you Maronite?

Yes, I am Maronite, it is the biggest church in Lebanon. It is a Catholic Church. St. Maron, patron of this church, lived in the fourth century. We have always been Catholic. We have our own oriental liturgy, we have married priests, which shocks the Latin rite a little bit, but we are Catholic.

Your main work is with refugees. Are most from Iraq?

Yes.

The Good Shepherd sisters opened a centre for street children in 2005. In 2006, with the War against Israel, we took charge of a dispensary, a clinic, St. Anthony's clinic. And we welcomed 5000 Shia refugees from an area which Israel bombarded. After that they left and we started to welcome Iraqi refugees, from 2008 to now. All the Christian Chaldean refugees from Iraq came through our centre.

We took a decision as a congregation to be close to this population, because they were very disoriented and needed lots of help, a lot of listening. Their Arabic is a little bit difficult to understand by other NGO's, so they felt more comfortable to come to our centre and all of them, without exception, liked coming here and we took the decision to welcome them, to be beside them and that is why we continue to receive them until today, with the crisis in Mosul, caused by the jihadists, many Iraqis fled Iraq.

In the beginning we welcomed a lot of young couples with their children, they were leaving Iraq forever, but nowadays we are welcoming also elderly people.

Before travelling to Portugal I received a blind woman, in a wheelchair, who is 85 years old. She was forced to leave her home. She was disoriented, very sad, very depressed. I was really sad. I thought to myself, what if it were me, blind and 85 years old, forced to leave my house, my area and all my life behind me? I was really speechless before her.

It is an inhuman situation, This population is forced to leave everything and to flee.

This woman and these more recent refugees are the ones coming from Mossul and the Nineveh Plains... We had heard that many were taking refuge in Arbil, but there are also some travelling to Lebanon?

Yes. When they reach Arbil, if they have money to buy a plane ticket they choose to go to Lebanon and submit a request to UNHCR to get a Visa to go to the West. All of Iraqis dream of leaving Iraq forever. Young people, but now also the elderly, are forced to do it.

Before coming over I also received two young men who came to the dispensary and they were crying: “Sister, we don't need help, we need work”. I listened to them. They said: “Sister, our parents sold everything, jewellery, cars, everything to buy plane tickets for us. We are here now, but we need to bring our family with us. Please help us to find work, to be able to pay for the ticket for our parents.”

Christian refugees in Iraq, fleeing Islamic State

And they were crying. It is unusual to see oriental men crying. I was disoriented and speechless before them, there have been many cases like that.

What is happening in Iraq is genocide. I said that 10 years ago. We are facing a very big genocide in Iraq. It is empty… all the Christians are outside Iraq now. In 1996 there were one million, nowadays we talk about 150.000, it is really a big genocide in Iraq.

Of course there is also a terrible situation in Syria. Do you also have Syrian refugees?

Of course. Our centre receives refugees from Syria, Iraq, other minorities who don't have any place to go. We offer them three kinds of service: Primary healthcare, social help and psychological help.

We have 32 doctors, of all specialities, to help them, because in Lebanon healthcare is private and very expensive, the state is unable to offer the refugees help, because there are four million Lebanese and we received 2.5 million refugees, more than half of the population of Lebanon.

Lebanon has been at war for about 30 years. The entire infrastructure has been destroyed. We don't have enough schools for all the children, enough places in hospitals, enough potable water. It is a big, big challenge.

It is not a developed country, because of the war everything has been destroyed, and to receive so many refugees is a huge crisis. They become poorer and poorer, with no jobs, the Syrian refugees make the society very weak and vulnerable. They are a huge number and among these refugees many jihadists have entered.

The borders are open, with no control, which is why many Jihadists are now in Lebanon, causing trouble, fighting against the Lebanese army, to control a Sunni majority area, as you hear in the news, every day we have soldiers killed by jihadists, and many such things.

The Syrian refugees live in Lebanon with no job. They are killing, stealing, they are violent. They need a place to live but the state is unable to help them and the international community didn't help Lebanon as much as we need. That is why there is really a big, big crisis in Lebanon. That is why we, as the Good Shepherd Sisters, need to be helped. I thank Aid to the Church in Need (ACN), which has helped us to face this crisis.

We know that ACN is one source of help, where do you get the rest from?

We have a few others, rich benefactors in Lebanon, who can help a little bit. In terms of healthcare services, the UN gives us about 10% of the budget of the dispensary. The big NGO which helps is ACN, in social issues, basic needs, clothes, milk, diapers for babies, hygiene kits, the basic for these refugees.

It is possible that the crisis in Syria will spread to Lebanon. If this happens, there is Syria on one side, Israel, with a closed border on the other, and the sea. Where will all these refugees, plus the new ones, go? Is there anywhere left to go?

Nowhere.

If this happens it will be a big war in the Middle East. Until now Lebanon is still stable in the Middle East, because the army has taken control of the situation. I don't know if the army will be able much longer, because it is a week army after 30 years of war. But if the war in Syria spreads to Lebanon it will be the end of the Middle East and the end of the presence of the Christians in the Middle East. We hope that this will not happen. If it does, it will be very difficult.

Lebanon is the country in the Middle East with the highest proportion of Christians. Do most of the Christians in Lebanon feel a special solidarity with the Christians from Syria and Iraq, or do they see them as a problem that they want to solve?

No, we see them as our brothers and sisters.

Winter is making life even more grim for refugees

They are like us. When the Islamic State took over Qaraqosh and all the Christians from Qaraqosh fled, many coming to Lebanon, the solidarity was exemplary. All the churches in Lebanon appealed and all the Christians collected a lot of food, a lot of clothes, a lot of money to help these refugees. We are poor, but even the poorest family gives something to help. It was really an example of Christian solidarity.

No, we don't see them as a problem, we are present to help them and to help ourselves at the same time. We are all a minority, refugees in the Middle East with this big crisis with the Islamic State. We are afraid, in Lebanon as well. We are waiting and praying a lot. Before coming I was thinking about St. Paul: “For you Lord we are facing all persecutions and all kinds of troubles, but we hope in you because you love us”, and our only hope now is the strength which comes from God.

The Shiites have been defending the Christians in Syria. Does the future of the Christians rely on an alliance with the Shia, including of course Iran?

I don't think so. As Christians in Lebanon, in the Middle East, all our lives I, myself also, lived with Muslims, Sunni and Shia. The Jihadists are not Muslim, in my opinion, they use Islam to spread their ideology. But I don't think that the Christians should count on the Sunnis or the Shias. Citizenship is for all, Christians, Sunnis and Shias. We share this country and we need to be recognized as Sunnis, Shias and Christians. I don't think we should be part of any... we are open to cooperate and share this country with our neighbours. We are not party to any political issues. In my opinion we can't count on any party. We need to cooperate with all the Muslims.

Has the response from Europe been what you expected?

Really I am shocked by this silence. There is a big silence about this genocide in the Middle East against the minorities, not just Christians. It is a big shock for me that Europe is so silent, sometimes to save a dog we have demonstrations in the streets. But every day there are lives destroyed in the Middle East and nobody says anything. It is a big silence and we are shocked. Why this silence? As if Human Life is without value. We are shocked, yes, we need a lot of support from this population, we need them to be awake! Why this silence? I can't understand.

Why are we still sending arms to the Middle East? To the jihadists or to the other parties?

We need them to stop sending arms, to stop the arms trade and then many things would change in the Middle East.

Pope Francis will be speaking to the European Parliament next Tuesday. What would you like him to say about the Middle East?

He is saying many beautiful things. He is the only voice to speak of peace and stopping sending weapons to the Middle East. I would like him to say please give the Middle East Peace. Enough war, enough lives destroyed. Enough children in the street, enough children forced to fight. Enough selling women in the market. Enough! It is inhuman and we need to be more human. I hope that he will awaken the conscience of the European Union.

What has happened in the Middle East is really incredible. We sell women in the market like objects. It is inhuman! Stop, please stop.

There are many different Christian churches in Lebanon. Have they been able to speak in one voice?

I don't know if they cooperate. I think there is much solidarity amongst them to face the crisis. Because it is a very critical moment in our history as Christians in the Middle East, a very critical moment. We stay or not, it is a question of life, of presence in the Middle East, that is why I think all the churches are united to face this crisis. We need to be united and to be close to each other to face this crisis. It is our survival, our life on the line.

Christian refugees in Erbil, Iraqi Kurdistan

Are there members of your congregation in Syria?

Yes. We have two communities in Syria. One in Homs and one in Maaloula, and a third on the border, in the Bekaa valley. The sisters are very afraid for their lives.

They remained in Homs and Maaloula?

Yes. They chose to stay with the population. They risk their lives, but as all the Christians who also took the decision to stay, we need to stay among our people. We can't abandon them. It is not possible.

Many people wonder how they can help. Materially they can give money or goods to Aid to the Church in Need, or other NGO's. In terms of prayer, what would you ask of them? Is there a special saint in Lebanon they could pray to?

Yes. Our patron is Our Lady of Lebanon. Our Lady of Lebanon and Our Lady of Fatima, of course, are the same. We need prayer. Before money, before anything else, we need our brothers and sisters in the Western churches to think about us, in heart and prayer. If we feel that we are supported by our sister churches in the west we will be stronger. We have faith of course. We need prayer, we need presence and we need people to be aware of our persecution.

"Most Christians accept Hezbollah"

Full transcript of my interview with his grace Archbishop Issam John Darwish, of the Melkite Archdiocese of Furzol, Zahle and the Bekaa. News report (in Portuguese) here.

Transcrição completa, no inglês original, da minha entrevista com o Arcebispo Issam John Darwish, da arquidiocese melquita de Furzol, Zahle e do Bekaa. A notícia respectiva está aqui.

You are here to speak on Religious Freedom in Lebanon, what is the situation in your country like?

First, let me thank you for welcoming me to this station, and thanks to the Church in Need for inviting me to Portugal to speak about religious freedom.

In the Arab world there are some difficulties in Religious Freedom. But I will start with Lebanon. There we don't have any problems, because we are free to worship in any religion. We have 18 sects and anyone is free to worship. The political power in Lebanon is divided between the 18 communities.

In Syria and in Iraq the constitution also permits freedom of religion, but actually, if you have a mixed marriage between a Christian and a Muslim, they must register it under Islam.

In other Arabic countries it is very hard to worship as you like. In the Gulf they have started to build churches, but for example in Saudi Arabia we are not permitted to identify as Christians.

The Arab spring did not advance anything in the Arab world, neither democracy nor religious freedom. But we hope, in the future, after the events in Syria and in Iraq, that we can have a transparent Islam, share our lives and be free to worship as we like.

At the moment the situation seems better in Egypt, though...

Yes. There is more peace now.

Last month I was in Egypt. I was invited by the minister of Tourism, to open the Holy Family Road. Jesus, Mary and Joseph went to Egypt, to 25 places, and the tourism minister chose seven places with the Orthodox Patriarchate of the Copts for tourism sites. Representatives of all the churches were there for the inauguration.

With the new president, and the new regime, it is more peaceful. They respect all religions and we hope that will continue in Egypt.

Lebanon is, as you were saying, a special case. What is the situation of relationships among different Christians? It seems that they are divided.

No, the Christians are not divided politically.

There are two parties, one which sides with the Sunnis and one with the Shiites. But it is not a religious divide, it is a political divide. There is a dialogue between the Christian communities and we live together as brother and sister.

In my town we celebrate the liturgy and the mass together, we celebrate feasts together, and in Zahle, where I am a bishop, the bishops meet every month and decide things together. There are no problems within Christian communities.

But as you said, there are two parties, one allied with the Shiites, one with the Sunnis. Does that weaken the voice of the Christians?

I don't think so because the mentality of the Christians is more democratic. The diversity in the Christian community is for the benefit of the country. That is why we try to avoid the war, we try to be part of the society and we like to be together. I am the head of the Christian-Muslim dialogue in Lebanon. I speak in the name of all the Catholics in Lebanon, we have good relations with the Sunnis and the Shias, we live together, we are together for each other's feasts, and we try to help those Muslims raise their voices against the jihadists, the fundamentalists, that we see in Iraq and Syria.

Bekaa Valley

Most of the threats to Christians seem to be coming from radical Sunni factions. Could the future of Christianity in the Middle East be tied up to Shia Islam?

I think we should be close to both, to Sunnis and Shiites. We are a bridge between communities and would like to play this role to bring them together.

Iran has a big influence in the region. What is the situation like in Iran at the moment?

I don't have the impression that Iran is radical. They are very open. I know a few Iranians, who have come to Lebanon, and I know the Shiites, they are very open now and more open to the Christian people.

Iran supports Hezbollah, largely through Syria. If the regime in Syria were to fall, how would that affect the balance of power in Lebanon?

It will be a big problem for the Christians in Lebanon and in Syria. We know that the Shiites are influenced by Iran and the Sunnis are influenced by Saudi Arabia. I think when the problems started in Egypt we started to have a problem in Lebanon and Syria. That is why last month I told a few ministers in Egypt to use their influence over the Sunnis in Lebanon, because I know that the Egyptian way is more moderate than the Wahhabis from Saudi Arabia.

How has Lebanon managed to avoid being drawn into the conflict until now?

From the beginning of the war I said in one of my speeches in Lebanon: “Be careful, the people in Lebanon will be influenced by the war in Syria.” And we are now... the jihadists, the Daash [Islamic State], the Al-Nusra Front, are now on the border of Lebanon. They are not far from my town, Zahle, they are in the mountains. And every day there is a fight between the Lebanese army and the Jihadists.

Also, Hezbollah defend, with the army, the border of Lebanon. But the Government has been very sensible, the Sunnis, the Shiites and the government, work together to avoid the big problem in Lebanon. I think that now the situation will improve, after the events of Tripoli, last week, where the Lebanese army removed the jihadists from the city and Northern Lebanon.

Lebanese Christians were the only ones who, during conflicts, organized themselves into armed militias. What lessons does that hold for the current situations of Christians persecuted in the Middle East?

I don't think we should have militias. We learned from the past that this is not the way for peace. The way for peace is only through dialogue between the communities. Weapons and arms are not helping to get peace. That is why all Lebanese parties are now against militias in Lebanon.

Bishops have been almost unanimous in saying that they do not want a safe-haven or independent country for Christians in the Middle East. In your opinion, however, should other communities like the Kurds have their own state?

Apparently yes, there is a country for the Kurds, but as Christians we don't like to have a country for our people. We like to be with everybody, because we are the salt of the society and we like to be friends with everybody.

Hezbollah soldiers in Lebanon

You were born in Syria… how has the civil war there affected you?

I still have family in Damascus. I am worried about the situation, but apparently Damascus and the big cities are now safer than three years ago, when the war started in Syria.

I call for the heads of state in Europe to stop sending arms to Syria and Iraq, to understand the problems better, to understand our way of democracy. We cannot have the European democracy. The Arabic world should start to think how they can have their own democracy, maybe in the near future we will find this way.

You say that European democracy does not work in the Arab world, but Lebanon has a functional democracy...

Half of the population of Lebanon is Christian, and the Christians are more adequate for Democracy and they like to have democracy. Even the Lebanese Muslims are apt to have democracy, because Lebanon is a unique state, the only state in the Arab world with a Christian president.

In Lebanon Hezbollah still have their own army and have resisted attempts to demiliterize. How do the Christians see the fact that there is this party in Lebanon with its own army?

Most of the Christians accept now presence of Hezbollah, because they have defended the Christian villages in Syria, like Maaloula. Maaloula was liberated by Hezbollah and other Christian villages in Syria also. That is why we now see Hezbollah as resistance against Israel and the jihadists in Syria, and especially against Daesh.

You said that it would be bad for the Christians if the regime fell in Syria. But do you see a future for Bashar al-Assad in power?

I would not like to see Daesh take the position of Assad. Assad, even with his faults, in Syria, is better than Daesh, Al-Nusra and other jihadists. At least we know that in his regime Christians are free to worship, to build churches, and the Government gave some land to help build their own monasteries and churches. I think that if we look between Syria and other Arabic countries, it is easier to live in Syria than other Arabic countries, except, of course, Lebanon.

"We will be the salt and the light of the Arab World"

This is a full transcript, in English, of my interview with Patriarch Gregorios III Laham, of the Melkite Church. His Beatitude speaks of the situation of Christians in the Middle East but also about particularities of the Eastern Catholic Churches, such as ordination of married men outside of the ancestral territories of the Patriarchates, etc. The news report can be seen here, in Portuguese, but is accompanied by a video which is in English, subtitled in Portuguese. The interview was conducted in English, some of the Patriarch's answers were edited for clarity, but always respecting his meaning. 

Transcrição integral, no inglês original, da entrevista ao Patriarca Gregório III, da Igreja Melquita. A notícia encontra-se aqui. 

You are in Portugal to speak about the situation of the Christians in Iraq and Syria. What will you be telling your audiences?

First, we are very thankful that you are so aware in Portugal and elsewhere about this situation, especially of the Christians as part of society in Syria. We are especially thankful to Aid to the Church in Need.

The events in Iraq in June, with the expulsion of about 120.000 Christians, and also some Yezidis from Mosul and Nineveh, were a shock for the whole Middle East. It had a great impact in Syria, because the Syrians were more optimistic, the situation was better, the government was doing well, the army was having more successes, but with this shock of Iraq the people were disappointed, skeptical, pessimistic, and more and more people are leaving today, because they are afraid that something similar will happen to them. 

Currently the main places of fear are near the border with Turkey, near Aleppo, in the North... Aleppo is a real prison, it has been for months. Several times without water, without electricity, and sometimes without food. But they are very courageous, and very united, the bishops and the people, but many left, especially the rich people who could help others. And many factories have been destroyed...

Damascus is less dangerous, it is the capital. We hear bombs and planes attacking, but more from the government against these mercenaries and bandits and groups. There are about 2000 groups working in Syria, fighting in Syria, against the government.

People say it is a civil war, but I can't say it is a civil war. Civil war means different factions of the country fighting each other. Here you have a government and mercenaries and groups from inside, from outside, fighting, attacking, kidnapping, and so on. It is not a civil war, it is not even a real revolution. It is a crisis, which is bigger because of the influence and invasion of other groups from outside. 

Daily we hear that people from Holland, Britain, Germany, are going to Syria. It is against human and natural law to go from Holland to fight against me in Syria, or to destroy my house. It's not like the first or the second world wars, not even like the war in Lebanon, there it was a real civil war, here it is all militias, militias, militias. 

The chaos is the biggest danger today. You don't know. Every place is safe in Syria and every place is dangerous.

Here in the West we see Christians being persecuted. Many people want to help. But what can they do?

First of all, really, if we had a consensus with the Arab world and Europe, to stop the war, this is the best help, because even with the huge humanitarian help by international organizations, the churches, Catholic and others, in spite of that, we can't cope with all the needs of our people. 

Daily we have more people needing help. For example, in my Patriarchate in Damascus we started a small community for about 300 families. Now we have 8000, and everyday more and more.

Children are dying, there are no schools, little food, now the winter, medicine, operations, handicapped people, kidnapped people and ransoms. Daily we have huge numbers and different sorts of tragedies and needs.

We have had lots of help, from the Vatican, Aid to the Church in Need, the Holy Father, Congregation for the Eastern Churches, Cor Unum, Ouvre d'Orient, Caritas, they are helping a lot, as well as our international friends. It is a lot of help, but we are not able to cope with the needs of the people. 

The second is really to stop the traffic of weapons. Pope Francis said that the biggest problem today is weapon trafficking... In Europe there are economic problems, and the weapons business and the war are ways of improving the economy in Europe and America.

For me, as a priest, as a bishop – very independent, very free, and with no tension or influences – we don't need these wars in the Middle East to change. We can change without that. The Islamic world was changing already before ISIS and so on, in general you could see development in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, without these wars and crises... we don't need it.

It is really an awful war and Europe is responsible for that, with the USA and with Russia. All together. I am sure that if one day the interests of Russia and America coincide we will have peace. As long as they don't realize how to do that, we will continue to have war. It is not ISIS... sure they have influence, but the real problem is somewhere else.

Assad warned that a change of regime would open the doors to radical Islam. Is the regime vital to coexistence?

The situation in Syria, the conditions of life together, coexistence, freedom of religion and of worship, churches, schools, development of industry and so on, is not only the result of the regime or the Ba'ath party. 

The party did a lot for the development of the country, but this coexistence, this freedom, is not a result of this party, which was founded by a Christian. It is an ancient tradition. In the time of the Ottomans, the best place to live, for Christians, was Syria and Lebanon, called Sham. These were countries where Christians could live. 

When you go out to other Arab countries, like the Emirates, the Gulf states, it is another Arabic Islamic situation. But the place where Christians used to live in security, in freedom and coexistence, cordiality, together, flourishing and respected, are these countries. So I wonder, what can these movements bring us more? I don't know. 

If there is an alternative, what is it? Who can bring me, as a Christian, as a Muslim, as Druze, as Shiite, more than I have now in terms of living together, peaceful coexistence of churches and mosques, living together in different quarters, with Christian business men having more Muslim employees than Christians... It is wonderful. I like to tell the Western countries, we live together better than in some countries in Europe. 

Many Christians were taken up by the pan-Arab nationalist movements in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Has that dream died?

Well, it is in great danger. Not because of Islamism, these movements are instruments for something else. For me the biggest danger and the biggest problem and cause of this instability in the Middle East is the failure by Europe and the Arab world to solve the conflict between Palestine and Israel.

Iraqi Christian refugees in Erbil

I served for 26 years as bishop in Jerusalem, before becoming Patriarch. I can tell you that all the problems in these countries are related to the problem in Israel and Palestine. As long as there is no solution it means this conflict will be an excuse for many countries, including Arab countries, to dominate their people, not to do what they have to do, and not to liberate and give freedom and development. They spend a lot of money on weapons, but for nothing. The greatest interest is for Israel. 

Security for Israel? I am ok with that. But also security for Palestinians. The security of Israel is more in the hands of the Palestinians than in the hands of Europe and America, because as we say in Arabic, your neighbor is more important than your own house.

The Holy Father Pope Francis, when he came to Jordan in May, said there are two keys to peace in the Middle East and the world. First, a real political and diplomatic, comprehensive, consensus solution for the crisis in Syria.

Second, justice for Palestine. These two things have to be considered in all policies. But they are not considered.

The European Union is 50 years old. I told them, look, you have 50 years of peaceful coexistence. Please help Arabs, don't divide Arabs. Help us to be united. It is better humanity, for development, for young generations and also for peace for you. 

If we solve the Palestinian Israeli conflict we will have less aggressive Islam in Europe. We will have better Islam in Europe, they can be better integrated, there will be more understanding and more dialogue. The danger for you is bigger than the danger for us. Islam in Europe will be more dangerous than in our lands, because we have a long experience of living together, we will be successful, we will live after this crisis. So for the sake of Europe and the Islamic presence in Europe, you need to help solve the problem.

Holland is now willing to recognize the State of Palestine. I asked the Holy Father, when I was with him on the 20th of October in Rome, I said please, be the first state, not the last, to recognize Palestine and you will help Christians and Muslims alike, and Jews also. 

The salvation, the security of the Jews are in our hands and not in the hands others. 

There has been more and more talk of creating a safe-haven for Christians in the Middle East, do you think the time has come for this?

Never! Never. Never. It was maybe a temptation in the past centuries, but no more. 

When Israel defined itself as a Jewish state, there were no protests, which is a pity. I am ok with the existence of Israel, but Jewish state? What for? Where am I as a Christian, or as a Druze, as a Palestinan Muslim... What is the difference between a Jewish state and Shari'a? Jewish state means the law of the Jewish religion. 

After the creation of a Jewish state some want to have an Alawite state, a shiite state, a Druze state, a Kurdish state, and so on and so on, what is the future? Nothing. 

We can't live separated! We have a history of living together. I told my people, we will not have our state, we will be in all states and being, in these states, salt and light. This is the future. Christians cannot live alone. We don't have a ghetto spirit. We have to avoid the ghetto spirit. To be put in a corner, or like a resort to save animals or plants... We are the cradle of Christianity, the birthplace of Christianity, we don't need a state.

I wrote a letter to my people and I quoted the letter to Diognetus, which is well known. I told my people, this is the answer to you. Already in the second century this was it.

The Holy Father said, in Evangeli Gaudium, that people think that the problems of today are worse and more difficult than the problems in the first century. It is not true, it is the opposite! For 300 years we had no rights, it was pagan, now we have churches, schools, congregations, we have processions, we have everything. We were able to overcome then, why not today? We have to give hope to our people, because the danger is so big, they are leaving. They are in great fear.

As pastors we have to be very strong and near to our people. We thank the Lord that all patriarchs and bishops are very near to their people.

Christian leaders have always been against the creation of armed militias for the Christian communities, but since the purge of Mosul and other Christian areas, many have defended the legitimacy of an armed response. What is your opinion?

We are not able be armed and we don't like to be armed. 

I said in 2012, in a letter, we were not asked to be armed, in Syria, we are not asking to be armed and we don't like to be armed. Now, it is different to say that in some places we need to have self defense possibility. Not to attack, not militia. Militia is not for Christians. Lebanon used that approach and it was a very, very bad experience. We don't need that, we are different. The Arabic world needs us like this, and not like militias.

We have to convince our people not to take up arms. We have to see other solutions. So I am asking the whole world, why, after years and centuries, are we always solving problems with war? Why not think of something else? In the XXI century the states are only thinking of more and more weapons. The church has to change minds in the states and not to see everything in terms of weapons and militias. This is not the answer, not for the future.

We had 1400 years with Islam without weapons, why not continue without weapons?

But many middle Eastern Christians reject the idea that they are Arabs, and claim to be Assyrians, how do you react to that?

Who is Arab? Where is the pure Arabic blood? Many Muslims were Christians, Assyrians, Greek Catholic, and so on. Many admit this, that they were Christians. Until the XIII century the majority of the Middle East was Christian. How did they become Muslim? Over time.

Being Arabic is something difficult to define. There are different linguistic or geographic groups. It is a mixture of different groups. You can't differentiate. I am Greek Catholic, because of the Greek language, but I am Syrian, just like the Assyrians, because it was the invasion of the Greek language and all the Middle East was speaking Greek in the cities. Even the founders of the Syriac church did not speak Syriac. They are called Syriac Fathers, but they spoke Greek. 

So the difference between Arabs and non-Arabs, Assyrians, Syrians, Chaldeans... The same country has different languages, or similar languages.

What is Assyrian? Assyrian, Syrian, Chaldean, Hebrew, Cananean, Philistines... These people are closer to each other than Europeans, because our languages are closer to each other than European. 

I am happy that we have many rites. Coptic, Syrian, Armenian... We have more pluralism than Europe. I say keep your tradition! Think in Arabic, but think also in Coptic, Greek, Armenian, Syrian, Assyrian, Chaldean... How beautiful!

Before the war we had one million Iraqis and they were singing and praying in our churches in Chaldean, it was so beautiful to hear them! In Maaloula Muslims speak Aramaic, just like the Christians. So this distinction between Arabs and non-Arabs... We are in the Arab World. We are Kurds, Druze, Shiite, Christian…

The "arabity" is a Christian trait. We brought that. Some people say, keep your Christians to keep your "arabity", because if there are no more Christians in the Middle East, only Muslims, they will call themselves Muslims, not Arabs. Even though the Koran is in Arabic, they will say we are Muslim. Arabic is the language, but the nation is Islam. 

So in order to keep a real Arab world, an Arab spring, even, we have to keep Christians there. Not only are we interested in staying, you are interested in us staying. This is a real mission.

That is why I said in my letter to other Christians, it is not the time to be only afraid. There are reasons to be afraid, but it is also time to see where is our mission? I like to tell Christians in Europe, never speak of our presence without speaking about our role and our mission. A presence without a role is nothing, a role without a presence is nothing, therefore we have to think about the Christian presence and the Christian role, and in the very beautiful words of Saint John Paul II, the essence of the human being is to be with and for. I am with the Arab World, but I am for the Arab World, that they may have life, and life in abundance. 

How wonderful is this mission? The essence is to be with, but also for. That is the whole sense of this awareness of the world about Christians, not for themselves, to be present, but to be more, to bring the light of the Gospel, the joy of the Gospel, the values of the Gospel in the world. 

There are many different Christian churches in the Middle East, each with its own Patriarch, liturgy, traditions, language… The feeling is that Christians do not speak as one community and with one voice. Is this a problem, and how can it be overcome?
Because of dogmas, sometimes we have some problems. But for the pastoral, for the social presence, for the works and so on, we are one, especially today. We thank the Lord that we have a wonderful set of Patriarchs today, very united, and we had, since June of this year, many meetings together, all Patriarchs, not just Catholics. We went together to Arbil, to visit the refugees of our brothers, the Iraqis, Yezidis, Christians and Muslims. And we went together to Washington where we had a meeting with Obama, for 40 minutes, all together, and we have many declarations, thank the Lord, with one voice. We are very grateful for that and we want the World to hear our voice. One of the means to realize peace in the Middle East is to hear the voice of the churches. 

We don't have interests, no money, nothing, no militias, we are really, in favour of our countries, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon... We are not servants of a regime, no, no, no! We are strongly together, to bring peace.

I sent a letter to the Holy Father and also to the Bishop's conferences in the world. Giving a little paper and asking them, can we make a paper and give it to the Orthodox, the Anglicans, Lutherans and together having one paper for peace in the Middle East... This is a very beautiful and unique chance for the Church to be peacemaker, and that means real power for the Christians in the Middle East, good for dialog to continue in the Middle East and also in Europe. It is a great chance and I hope it will work. We were together with the Holy Father on the 21st and he said Yes, I hope they will do that, to have one document, one word of the whole world towards peace in the Middle East.

Were you satisfied with the results of the Synod for Middle Eastern bishops?

It was really an act of providence. Just before the crisis in the Middle East we had this wonderful chance to join together, Catholic bishops, but also the Orthodox, who were represented, Muslims and Jews... It was providential of Benedict XVI to have this synod, giving a plan for the Christians to be strong and to remain at home. What we need today we have in this document, to remain in our places, and all problems we need to speak about are in this document. 

We are very, very happy, and it is providence that this happened just before the start of the Arab Spring and the troubles.

Two of the only things the synod fathers requested, permission to ordain married men in diaspora communities and direct authority over your communities, were denied...

In November last year we had a meeting with the Pope for 4 hours. All Patriarchs of the Eastern Churches, and also the Archbishop-majors, and we spoke of these problems. One result is that today it is ok to ordain married men in America, and not only, in Europe, slowly, because we don't have these huge communities, but it is possible also.

This is official?

Yes, yes, official. With some indications to be discrete, because we have to go slowly, but it is ok. 

As for the authority of the Patriarchs outside, it is not so much as we wished. But it is up to us to organize ourselves. If we have more relations with the Latin Church in the countries where we have people, we can reach more with relations than with Canon Law, or with rules. And I think through the war now, and the crisis in the Middle East, I think there is more and more sensitivity towards us, and this is very important. 

Some Eastern Rite Catholics complain about the restrictions and say that they feel like second class catholics. Do you ever feel that way?

No. We had this experience of the synods and I attended many. There are feelings of family and respect. They are happy to hear us. We have more and more communication with them... I don't think that.

We do have better relations with the Cardinals and bishops outside the Curia. The Curia is very legalistic. We have better friendship with the Church outside the circle of the Roman Latin Church. It is different, you know, the Latins in Rome are one thing and the Latins outside Rome are something else. But it is the Church.

Pope Francis was the ordinary for the Greek-Catholic Communities in Argentina, do you expect a better understanding from him?

Well, this meeting in November last year, was a sign of that, and the same with the consistory on the 21st. He is always praying for Syria and for the Middle East.

We can't forget the prayer for Syria in September 7th last year. For 5 hours we were praying and we avoided the attack against Syria. The warships were on the coast with Syria. But there was no aggression, and Syria became a member of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, it was a change.

I think he is very sensitive. In Argentina he was in touch with all communities, Catholic, Orthodox, and also Muslims and Jews. And he grew up in a very plural society and therefore he brought such a beautiful change and a new outlook for the Vatican. 

There is a tradition among Melkites of refusing to be made cardinals...

Yes, it is very rare. One Patriarch became Cardinal in the XIV or XVI century. But in the modern times, only Maximos IV, who was forced to accept as a sign of reverence. But for my predecessor Maximos V and for myself it is not a question. 

This is a Roman thing, not Oriental. We are more than cardinals, not by rank, but by jurisdiction. I am the Pope of my church. 

I like to say, jokingly, that as a Patriarch I am a big archbishop and a little Pope. In many things, unless there are problems, I can rule and serve my church without any reference to Rome. 

Respecting the tradition of the Eastern churches is a mission for us. Because we are the voice of the Orthodox inside all the jurisdiction and meetings of the Catholic Church. We are the presence of the absentee. If something is related to the Orthodox, we are there. We are immediately giving the point of view of the Orthodox and Eastern churches, and that is a big service that we provide.

Fifty years ago [Ecumenical Patriarch] Athenagoras met my predecessor Maximos IV. Maximos said to Athenagoras, “I was speaking always thinking of you”. And Athenegoras answered, “You were speaking on my behalf”. That is why we are so very faithful to our tradition, because it is the tradition of the Church. As John Paul II said in Orientale Lumen, a beautiful document, the Eastern Churches are churches, the same level as the Latin Church. It is not a special Church, it is the Church of God, the same, in the Middle East, in the Eastern as well as in the Western Church.

If somebody asked you if they should go and fight with the Kurds against the Islamic State, what would you respond?

Let us be ourselves and let Syria and Iraq solve the problems by ourselves. We used to be together for many years. Let the little people work together, and as I said, don't divide the Arab world. 

The people who fight are motivated by money and lack of sense of life. I don't think the jihadists coming from Britain, from Germany or Sweden are really willing to be jihadists or to be Muslim, they have no sense of life and they find adventure. 

Therefore I am really not afraid of them, and I would like to invite the European Union and the Western world to work for better Islamic united world, a united Arabic world, and you will have peace in your country. Peace in our countries is peace for Europe. We are one. We cannot forget the Mediterranean... it is our water. We need a good future for peace in our countries. No war! As Paul VI said. And let the little people work together.

You are interfering because you are powerful and you have weapons. You have to change your mind and do something else. Christianity is always a new look, the World today needs a new look. Not only wars and weapons and so on. We have to think of something new.

We had a bad experience of wars for centuries in the Middle East. The Gospel is a new look over the world. We hope that we can bring more light to our world.

“Cristãos serão o sal e a luz do mundo árabe”