“We hope the Pope puts his diplomatic machine to work 100%”

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Metin Rhawi, from Suroyo TV and the European Syriac Union, regarding the importance of Pope Francis’ visit to Iraq. Excerpts of this interview were used here and here.

How important is this visit for the Christians in Iraq?

The Christians in Iraq, we have good knowledge about what they are thinking, and regarding this visit many people find it important, of course, because they belong to the Catholic Church, they are Chaldeans or Syriac Catholics, and that gives them a possibility to see their supreme leader in faith. But at the same time there are also clear voices from the same community who have reservations. 

We know the situation of our people, the Christians in Iraq. We are out in the diaspora, we have lost everything, it is about existing or not in their homeland. Since Daesh no rights have been acknowledged. We are happy that they are talking a bit more about the Yazidis now, and also remembering that there were Christians who suffered very much, and so they are also mentioned, but we have lost properties, our land, our cities, our villages, our rights and there has also been a very bad influence in the civil society, with people thinking that they do not actually need the Christians, they are not part of the system, part of the culture, and also some voices from Muslim leaders asking why the Pope should come to Iraque, since he is an infidel. 

Of course, Al-Khadimi and Barham Salih have expressed their gratitude and they are happy he is coming, they are doing their best and trying to show a good face, but both sides exist, in general, among the society, and also among the Christians. Some are very happy, but others are raising issues. We have been victims of genocide for over 100 years. The last big genocide was in 1915, prior to that, 1895 and then Daesh 2014. Nobody demanded acknowledgement or liability for what happened then and now. Rights do not exist. Nobody talks about the possibility of educating our children in our language, the right to be Christian and if we want to produce and consume alcohol it should not be a problem, but instead we see bombing of the stores that sell alcohol in Baghdad. So there are many rights that have been left out and it seems to those people that the Pope should ask about this situation before coming here and making sure that the rights should be acknowledged and given to the Christians, the Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs, because it gives some kind of legitimacy to the Baghdad regime, as if they had been successful in dealing with this sort of thing. But obviously the Pope will be having diplomatic discussions with them, I believe. 

But of course we know the Vatican has always had a very pragmatic approach to diplomacy, and have in fact been able to achieve successes and rights precisely through dialogue with regimes that are not always friendly, such as China.

Obviously, the Pope’s administration is very powerful and he is in a position that he can, indirectly, influence some foreign ministries. Obviously, the countries that are Catholic, and proud of it, listen to the Pope when he has something to say, we know that! That is why we, as the European Syriac Union have not expressed reservations about this visit. We think it is good, it is very important that he visit our homeland, because some of our people belong to his church, they are faithful to his church, and to him, and he should be asking about their rights. We hope that he will do that, we understand also that he is not a leader of a country who has an army to invade, or to impose sanctions, but we know that he has the capacity, when he wants to, to draw a line in the sand that should not be crossed. We hope that is his intention, because we see a lot of concern from the Pope and the cardinals and bishops around him have expressed this, that Christianity should not vanish from the Middle East, from Iraq. They are trying to do their best, but their strongest weapon is prayer... But we know that he has diplomacy and we believe that he will use it, of course. 

I am trying to show you the full picture. There are people on the ground with both opinions. I know that in Baghdedi and Bartella for three months a choir has been practicing singing hymns in Italian and in Latin, as well as in Arabic and Syriac, to show that they are proud to be Assyrian/Syriac/Chaldean, they have their own language, but they belong to Iraq at the moment, they are Iraqi and they are also Catholics. 

Disunity has always been a problem for Christians in the Middle East. Following the persecution by the Islamic State, has the situation improved?

If you look internally, when it comes to Christianity, the persecution woke us up from this strange dream that we are different empires living on the ground. In fact we are hospitalised on the ground, we are close to dying on the ground, but still the church leaders are not trying to find us a common line on the ground for Iraq. The Patriarchs and leaders of the different churches should cooperate much more. They are all Christian, but they have the same roots, they are the same people, there is no doubt that they are the same community, but they are divided in different "isms", when it comes to faith some are Catholics, some are Orthodox. They should have done much more.

Watching the political leaders, I can see that they are trying, but the ones who have more power, with seats in Parliament, consider that they are big enough to decline any interest that does not benefit them directly, they are not thinking as a community, but rather as parties. We are still divided, unfortunately, in that sense. It is tough to say that, it hurts, but it is the reality.

There are many reasons for the Pope not to visit at the moment. A recent bombing in Baghdad, the pandemic… The Pope has personally insisted on going. In your opinion is he being foolish, brave, or both?

We have seen in the news that even the previous Pope has expressed his fear and called upon Pope Francis to be careful and maybe not visit because of the security, and the Pandemic. I think that the Pope is not stupid, he is not foolish. He is doing a very good thing to show that he is with his people and that he has interests in Iraq because of the people and because the societies in the Middle East are based on faith and religion and he is a leader that mush show that he is close to his people. And he is doing that and we should really give him credit for that.

We hope he will get home safe and secure, and I think that will be arranged, I am not worried that something might happen to him. His faithful love him, and they won't get too close because of Covid. I think all this will be respected, and he knows how much this means to his people, because even if some say he should not visit before rights are guaranteed, there is a part of the community that is really insisting, and rightly so, that he is showing courage and showing that he is with them, that he knows that they exist there and that nobody should be able to force them out. So much so that he is even willing to visit them himself. It is an act of being with his people, and that is good, and we should give him credit. 

But of course, above all, we really hope he will run his diplomacy machine to work 100%, because it is a very critical situation, in Iraq and in the Middle East in general. 

In Iraq there are about 300 thousand Christians from different churches, of the Chaldean/Assyrian/Syriac people today. So, from being about 4 million 20 years ago, maybe more, to 1.8 million in 2003, or 1.5, according to the figures, now people say 200 thousand, others say 300 thousand, so we can see that it is like 10% left. We are not far away, in time, it could be in our lifetimes... This is frightening, and we need to be awake and I think the Pope is acting on that. 

"The Syriac people in Syria are not happy with the regime"

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Johan Cosar, a Swiss born syriac Christian who fought against the Islamic State. English is not Johan's first language, some of the answers have been edited for clarity. The published news story, in Portuguese, can be read here.

Esta é uma transcrição integral, no inglês original, da minha entrevista com Johan Cosar, um cristão siríaco, nascido na Suíça, que combateu o Estado Islâmico. O inglês não é a primeira língua de Johan, por isso algumas das respostas foram ligeiramente editadas, por uma questão de clareza. A reportagem, em português, pode ser lida aqui.

---

You did your military service in Switzerland? 

Yes, like any other Swiss.

And did you enjoy it?

Actually, the first days I wasn't that happy. But as the weeks went by I enjoyed it more. I took it like a new education, a new challenge, and at the end one of my instructors, who had really motivated me, I think he saw the leadership I had in me, and he captured it and cultivated it. So that is why in the end I decided to continue and I signed a five year contract as a sergeant. 

What was your specialty? 

Mountain infantry and local combat, small special forces, if you'd like. 

Did it ever cross your mind that you might ever need to use that training in the Middle East?

No, not at all. I was so far from the Middle East, even if I do have roots in the Middle East there was no reason to think about it. So, in 2011 I finished my military duty, in November, and around that time the first demonstrations began in Syria. You could see that something was going to happen. 

Your roots are in Turkey?

My father was born in Syria, but my mother is from South East Turkey, but very close to each other, separated by only a small border line. 

Was the Syriac identity and culture present in your education? Did you speak Syriac at home?

Yes, of course. 

I was talking about this with some friends just a few days ago. I had the great opportunity to grow up in two big cultures. One, the Middle East culture, especially the Syriac/Assyrian culture, where all the civilizations came from. 

And, of course, at home – especially my father – was pressuring us to not forget our own roots, and not to be ashamed of them, because you can be good for no other culture if you deny your own. So, at home, still today, we speak Syriac, and I have one brother and one sister, and many cousins, and we don't regret or deny our culture. The whole family is connected this way.

But at the same time I had a Swiss education in Switzerland, we had a good education and the great opportunity to have a good education. So I grew up with two cultures and this made me very happy and very cultured. 

What is that made you first go to Syria?

My father had been involved in fighting for the rights of our people for a long time. And by going there and back he kept mentioning what was going on there, and pressing me to go and see what was happening. 

I finally decided to go in 2011, to report in a free-lance way, because everybody was talking about Syria from outside Syria, and that is a big mistake, talking about something that you can't see, and that you are not involved in, just from seeing and listening from outside, is a big mistake. Especially since my people were there. I had people who could finally achieve something, after 2000 years. I thought "let's try this trip, go in, and achieve something good for my people too". 

So that is why I decided to leave Switzerland, for around six months, reporting what was happening in Syria from inside. I made some reports for friends in radio and newspapers. But things didn't go like I'd planned. 

What was your first idea when you began to see the first signs of the Arab Spring?

Hope, of course. And helping the people. 

I have had much contact with Christians from Syria, mostly from Damascus, Aleppo, and so on, and they tend to be very much pro-regime, or at least against the rebels. But that is not the universal reality. The Christians from Qamishli maybe saw this with hope that they could get more rights?

I think that even the Syriac Christians in Damascus, Homs and Aleppo, right now, think like we do, but they can't express their own opinions, for one reason, because around Aleppo, Homs and Damascus there is only the regime, no other forces and no other solution. In Northeast Syria there was the Syrian regime, there was ISIS, there were jihadists and us. So the people could choose. 

Are you including the Free Syrian Army as jihadists?

At the beginning, no. At the beginning I was one of those who appreciated what they were doing. But after we started seeing them chant Allahu Akhbar after every attack, I realised this was going to change and become something else. 

The Syriac people in Syria are not happy with the regime. They are controlled. It's a fake protection, protection under the name of being controlled. For our people, at the moment, if you have to choose between ISIS and the regime, or between the revolutionaries of this time and the regime, of course they are going to choose the regime, because the others have nothing to offer them, they are chopping off heads, forcing people to leave their homes, not accepting their culture or their religion... It's an easy decision. 

But if the regime could give us – which isn't going to happen – the chance to go there and to present ourselves and give the people a choice...

This is the difference between North-eastern Syria and other places. I am sure, absolutely sure, that the Christians do not see the Assad regime as their saviour or protector anymore, because they saw what happened. Where was the regime in Al-Qaritain? In Qunaitra? In all the places where ISIS came in, made mass destruction and left? Where was the regime in the Khabour area? In Hassekah? 

I think that in 8 years of war the people opened their eyes, they are not blind anymore.

So you were in Syria when something happened to your father…

[Johan’s father was kidnapped by regime agents, who then told the family that he had died in custody, although they never provided the family with a body]

I was in Syria when my father was kidnapped. We met each other the day before. It was not the main reason for me to go to Syria or to stay in Syria. Of course, the love I had for my father, and how much we were attached to each other, is unbelievable, because we were like friends, even in this movement. 

But that was not the main reason he and I were there. It's a cause, a purpose, that is what brought us there and made me stay there. 

Do you believe he is still alive? 

I do. It is still a matter of 50/50. As long as we don't have a sure answer we keep up the hope. I can't say if he is dead or alive, so let's keep it like this.

What year was he kidnapped? 

August 12th, 2013.

So by that time you were already in Syria full time?

Yes.

And you were already involved with the military aspect?

Not that much... I started to be involved one month later, with training. So it was the very beginning of everything at that time. 

So in 2013 you began training, is that when the Syriac Military Council began to form?

The SMC officialised in January 2013, but in practical terms, in starting to form and organise itself, it started in August and September.

When you began with the training, were you aware you were breaking Swiss law?

At the beginning I didn't even think about it. I saw the state of emergency we were in and I didn't think about it. When you see the jihadists coming, very close to you, when you see people are being kidnapped, abducted, and killed, from the groups very close to you, you don't think about laws. 

What was the state of the people you were training? Did any of them have any military experience, or were they beginning from zero?

I had people who were veterans from the Assad regime, but it was like training somebody from zero. Because the military education I had was very different from theirs. So you can say that all the people I trained was from zero, because giving them a Western training is like teaching them a new language. 

When does the Syriac Military Council begin to be involved in actual conflict?

Our first session, about 1 month, was in October 2013. 

Already allied with the Kurds?

Yes. 

Were the YPG better prepared?

YPG were, of course, better prepared. They are old fighters. But we reached their level of preparation very well. 

Did they respect the Syriac fighters?

Of course, very much. They had very high respect for us. The Syriac Military Council is still very well respected by the YPG and other military forces because at that time that I was there fighting with them they could see how ready we are for everything, so there is great respect of the Kurds for the Syriacs. It is not only about the military forces, there is a lot of respect about what we are. 

Because traditionally, over the past 100 years, the Syriac and the Assyrian people have not been a fighting people. Was it difficult to convince people to take up weapons?

100 years ago we were not, but 2000 years ago we were. We tried to take back that feeling. 

It wasn't that hard. The most difficult thing was to convince them that the we were in the wrong status to begin with. That was the main difficulty, to change the minds of the people, not just making them fight, but to fight for what? 

You can bring people during a war and let them fight, that is easy, but if they don't know what they are fighting for, that is your main problem. One day you will stop fighting ISIS, and then? You have about 1000 people, with military training... If they don't have any goals they can turn against you, they become a threat, but if they are educated, if they have a goal, if they are really focused on a purpose, on a way, it becomes much easier. But if you have 1000 people who are just fighting, they become like a gang after that. 

Which we see in several places in the world. So what is that goal?

At the beginning it was just to have our own rights, to be recognised as a people, with our culture, our religion, our language, like any other people, and like indigenous people of Syria, not just a minority, because we are not a minority in Syria. There are more than three million Christians in Syria, more than Alawites, more than Kurds. So we are not a minority in Syria, we are not a minority in the Middle East, we are indigenous. This is our place. 

The main goal was that. We never wanted to create a new nation, anything like a Kurdistan, or for us a Mesopotamia... Just to be recognised as a people in the place where we were, that was our main goal. 

So when do you change from training officer and actually go and fight on the front lines?

Very fast. After starting training in October, I was part of assault groups in December.

And here you were facing ISIS?

No, at that time we were facing Al-Nusra. After that came ISIS.

When you are on the ground fighting, is there a difference between fighting ISIS or al-Nusra?

Of course. Fighting al-Nusra was... I won't say easier, because they are very fanatical, full of drugs and therefore harder to take down, because it was like fighting a non-person, no fear, no hunger, no cold in the winter... Because they were full of drugs. And they attacked in mass, 50, 60 or 70 people. 

ISIS is different. It is an ideological movement, supported by many nations, so more professional. And you saw what they did, so it was more difficult to fight them. Especially because of the equipment they had, it wasn't normal... The technological equipment they had, the tunnel systems, the IED systems, things you can't even imagine, and these are things that came from big nations, and one of them is Turkey. 

If you were captured by Al-Nusra, what would they do to you? 

Cut off my head. 

So in that sense no difference between ISIS and al-Nusra...

No difference, it was the same. 

Obviously you were in dangerous situations all the time. Were you ever in situations where you thought, "that's it for me?"

There was one where we were going to patrol a village, myself and three YPG fighters. It was a recon group, so we were going to the village, see what was going on there and return to the assault groups and prepare the assault. 

The four of us went, and according to the report, the village was empty, no al-Nusra. When we were there of course we were walking next to each other, and unfortunately the village was, in fact, full of al-Nusra.

This was 2013, we didn't have any night vision goggles, radios, operation rooms. We just had one radio for each group to connect to the others. So when we were walking another patrol from al-Nusra was walking towards us, but it was so dark, and so foggy, that we didn't see each other. 

I was the one on the far-right. I touched the shoulder of the one on the right of the other group. Our shoulders touched and I jumped. We understood that we were from opposing groups...

Because of the good training I had I always held my weapon in front of me, not on my shoulder, and when I realised that they were al-Nusra I jumped one step back and one to the left, and I started shooting.

I heard the guy on my left get hit by a bullet. 

Then we tried to escape, but we were in this village, and we were about 500 meters in the desert, with no orientation, in the darkness and in the fog, alone. I lost my other three colleagues. One was martyred, but the problem is that all the village suddenly realised that something had happened there, and they were all al-Nusra, and they started to search for us. I don't know how I escaped. I walked in the desert, I didn't even know what direction I was walking in, because of all the confusion and the fog, but fortunately we managed to go in the right direction, and we all survived, except the one who was killed at the beginning. 

That was one time when I really thought, OK, I'm done...

You were there and fought against ISIS. To see the declaration of their territorial defeat, what did that feel like? 

Territorially it's done, but it's not over. I'm not celebrating. It's a good thing to give hope to the people, territorially, so they can start a new life, a new education, a new future with better prospects, but the war is not over. 

Of course there is a risk of sleeper cells and more terrorist activity, but when you say the war is not over, are you also thinking about Turkey and the regime?

I think so, yes. 

The war is not over because until now it was a war of militias, now the big war will start, between the Sunni and Shia factions. 

You were there for a long time. Do you believe the Federation and this democratic project will be able to survive in the long run?

I think so, yes. I believe it will. Because it is the only way to make sure minorities survive. The policy is based on minorities, not on the idea of one family, one nation. With the one family, one nation policy you can see what happened. Giving hope to the minorities is creating a new life for people, it is making Sunnis and Shia live together, Muslims and Christians live together, Jews and Muslims living together. I think that it is a big example for democracy and a new life in harmony together. It has to survive, if not the Middle East will be a disaster for another thousand years. We won't come out of this war for another thousand years.

When did you decide to return to Switzerland, and why?

My first trip back to Switzerland, after many years in Syria was in 2015. Why? Because I had to face this trial. 

By then you had already been warned that you were in trouble back home...

I had the possibility to come back, because before it was not possible for me to leave. I left illegaly, I had a lot of difficulty to leave the KRG [Iraqi Kurdistan], because I had entered from Turkey. I used fake papers to enter the KRG, then I used my Swiss Passport, then I didn't have a stamp to leave, so it was very difficult.

But when you were in Syria did anyone from Switzerland contact you...

No. I heard from the newspapers.

So obviously they were keeping an eye on you...

Of course, yes. More than one. 

You came back, and what did the Swiss authorities say?

I was stopped in Switzerland, and of course they interrogated me, and they told me they had to open a military case against me, because I broke this and that rule. But nothing bad, so I was not being treated as a criminal. At many of the places I was going around, the police and so on, they were looking at me as a good guy, who did a good thing.

At the trial that we had at the end of February they honoured my action, even though they gave me a punishment. We appealed, and so the trial will continue.

So it was just a fine?

Yes, around 500 dollars. But we appealed on grounds of principle. 

Have there been Swiss who went to fight with ISIS who came back as well?

Yes, but they were tried for small things.

Are they back in Switzerland?

Yes.

What is it like, thinking that one day you could be walking in Zurich and bump into a guy who had been fighting for ISIS?

It's a big mess for Switzerland. A big mess.

I keep myself protected. I know how to move, when I go anywhere, I know how to watch myself, but the other people... It's a problem.

Your face must have been everywhere now because of this trial. Does it worry you in terms of safety, reprisals?

No. Myself, personally, no. I am not worried, I am not scared, but I take precautions. Like everyone in Europe must, because you don't know when some sleeper cell in ISIS will shoot, cut or bomb... 

You know ISIS better than pretty much anybody else in Switzerland. Have you had any requests for cooperation? To prevent terrorist attacks?

No. I was asked to go to some conferences, but until now I have kept myself far away from these things. I want to finish my trial in a clean way and then we'll see. 

In 2015 you came back, and since then you haven't returned to Syria?

I have been to Iraq.

But were you involved in any fighting in Iraq?

No, no fighting.

So you continue to be very active in the Syriac cause...

All the time. I can't leave what I started. 

You were in Syria for about three years fighting. Did you leave your job here in Switzerland?

No, I was a professional soldier. I went as soon as I finished my contract with the army. 

So now you need to start a new life?

Being involved in the organisation we have now in Iraq is my full-time occupation.

Are you married?

Thank God, no. 

Are you more hopeful for the future of your people now? 

Yes, of course. More hopeful and with brighter prospects for the future. The people we were involved with gained strength from seeing ISIS being defeated territorially. For the Syrian people that is a huge victory. 

You fought side by side with the YPG. And you said they respected the Syriacs. Now that ISIS is defeated, YPG is still the big player in the region. Do you trust them?

I trust them, like they trust me. But it is politics. I trust the people who represent the Kurds, and their idea. I trust their idea, and I respect the idea. I don't follow the people. If they keep to their idea and follow it, to do something for all the peoples there, I will trust them. If they are going to change their idea they will be betraying themselves, more than me. 

Were you ever frustrated or surprised that there were more Syriacs like you from Europe going to fight with your people?

No. I was happier to see the Syriacs inside Syria fight. The main problem was to convince them to change their mentality, not to bring them to war. So I was really happy to see all the influence we had and the young people joining the SMC, because they trusted what we were doing. We were not obsessed with bringing people from outside. If you come by yourself you are welcome, but we were pushing for the local fighters, because those are the people who are going to stay. 

It's a little bit like the volunteers of the YPG. They came in their thousands. How many are still in Syria? They left. If we had a thousand Syriac youths and then leaving, it doesn't make sense. We were looking for a long-term, strategical commitment. 

"Nineveh is not a 'disputed area', it is our home"

Metin Rhawi

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my conversation with Metin Rhawi, of the European Syriac Union, about the situation in the Ninevah Plain and expectations for after the liberation of Mossul. The interview was used for several articles on the subject.

Esta é uma transcrição completa, no inglês original, da minha conversa com Metin Rhawi, da União Siríaca Europeia, sobre a situação na Planície de Nínive e as expectativas para depois da libertação de Mosul. A entrevista foi usada para uma série de artigos sobre o assunto.

Could you please introduce yourself and your organization?

I am head of Foreign Affairs for the European Syriac Union. What we do basically is advocacy for the Chaldean/Syriac/Assyrian people in our homeland, Old Mesopotamia, or Bet-Nahrain, as we call it, today Iraq, Turkey, Syria, parts of Lebanon and parts of Iran.

Our work is basically trying to raise the issue and the situation for this minority who have been the indigenous people of this region for the past 8.000 years or something. The situation for Christians is currently very crucial, losing almost everything they had, many having gone abroad.

Originally I was born in the Southeast of Turkey, in Midyat, and I belong to the Syriac Orthodox Church. But among our people we also have the Chaldean Church, the Apostolic Chuch of the Assyrians, the Maronite, the Melkite Church and the Orthodox... So there are many denominations.

How familiar are you with the situation in Iraq? Do you travel there frequently?

I have been in Iraq four times in the past one and a half years, and once to Syria. Unfortunately I couldn't make more trips to Syria because they closed the border from Iraq, so we need to go through the regime controlled airports in Syria, and that is not possible for me because I have taken a stance against the regime in Syria.

So I am well informed and I have seen with my own eyes and I have a network of political parties, NGOs, different associations and military militias in Iraq.

Why is there so much division among Christians? I counted 12 political parties and several militias.

I don't know if you could necessarily call this division, these are political views of the current situation, or at least how to solve the current situation, and as within any country or nationality you have many political views, many parties, among our community we have also many parties, at least 13 or 14 parties, so even more than the ones you discovered, and five of them have their own militias. I think this is due to the fact that you have the Baghdad regime on one side and the Kurdistan Regional Government controlled by Kurdistan Democratic Party on the other. These local politics are benefiting from the situation when you have political groups which are split, rather than joining forces.

In this case they can, at any time, play the situation against each other and this is what we are facing, unfortunately they are giving us some kind of hope from different sides, and at the same time our community, and the political parties, are in really great need of doing something for the people who have been tossed around in different directions, in order to reach their goal, to give something to the people, some kind of security and hope for the future in their homeland.

Then you see the big policies between these big nations who are interfering, Iran with the Shia concept, Turkey with the Sunni concept, and the Syrian regime and the United States and Russia, so it is quite puzzling situation and you need to have all the facts, trying to understand why these communities are so divided.

But you would agree that it is negative for the aspirations of the community to have so much political division?

It is, in one sense, if you don't have a common strategy and agenda, of course it is. Today what we can see with these political parties, different members of the European Parliament, different political associations and foundations, and us, we have reached an agreement between all of them among the community to have some common demands for the Nineveh Plain.

For instance, we are starting to have the same agenda in some very important and common issues, and that is the positive thing today that I would like to focus on. But of course it is quite frustrating that there are so many different factions within a small community like ours, because from two million ten years ago, we are today close to 400 thousand. So we can understand that we should not be so divided, because we are losing the grip, while discussing among ourselves what to do as the next step.

After the liberation of Mosul, do you expect to see conflict between Baghdad and Kurdistan over the disputed areas?

As for the “disputed areas”, that is their term, but we don't agree with it... The Nineveh Plain is not a disputed area, even though Baghdad and Erbil many times tried to make it appear so, this is the land of our ancestors since many thousands of years back. Bartella city has been home to Syriacs since about 5,000 years before Christianity, so how can it be a disputed area?

But, having said that, what is actually happening on the ground today is that you can see the regime trying to take the Northeastern part of the Nineveh plain, and the Peshmerga controlling the Southeastern part, so they have already, more or less, in practice, split the region, so now for us as Christians it is very important to really make it obvious that the Nineveh Plain is not open to be divided by these two political powers of Baghdad and Erbil.

As for the future, whether they are going to have an armed fight, I don't know, that is difficult for us to say. Until now they have been quite good at talking, they respect each other, but you never know... They have had ISIS in their faces for two years, what will happen in the future is very difficult to say. But for us, at least, we know that they are interfering on the ground, in a region which belongs to us and which they call a disputed area.

However, you can also say this is a totally disputed area, because even Turkey talks about being involved, so it is quite a difficult situation...

Miliciana cristã acende velas numa igreja no Iraque

So can I gather that you would prefer to see the Nineveh Plains not directly under the control of Baghdad or Erbil, but autonomous?

The situation in all of Iraq and also in Kurdistan is a great lack of democratic process. It is still the strong people who make decisions, there is empowerment of powers which are already quite strong and the local minorities are more or less powerless. So what we need to do is work to empower the local minorities, like the Yezidis, like the Shabaks, the Turkmen and the Assyrians, in order to have this autonomous region together, with different provinces within it. Whether it is going to be connected to Baghdad or to Erbil… I think this is a question of what the law says in Iraq today. Obviously it should be closer to Baghdad, but with very good relations with Erbil.

In our opinion we should have an open book with each other as a province or autonomous region both with Erbil and Baghdad and explain that this region can be an autonomous region. The ministers’ council of Baghdad, two years ago, declared that the Nineveh Plain can be an autonomous region for the Chaldean/Assyrian/Syriac community, but we have not seen anything more than talk. Erbil shows the same willingness: "If the community want their freedom and self-government in an autonomous region in the Nineveh plain, we will help them”, but still we cannot see more than one autonomous region and that is Kurdistan, and the rest is Iraq.

So we hope, really, that all this talk becomes real policy and for this we need the support of the United States and the European Parliament to support this region becoming an autonomous region, with the good help of Kurdistan and the very, very good help of Baghdad.

In the future, how it develops, I truly don't know, because you never know, in this region, what is going to happen a year from now, it is very difficult to say.

This scenario you described only seems to work if Kurdistan remains in Iraq. If Kurdistan becomes independent and the Christians are forced to choose between joining an independent Kurdistan or remaining in Iraq, what do you think the majority would choose?

I think it is very difficult today to say, and it would not be good for me to do that.

I think it is quite obvious that the Chaldean/Assyrian/Syriac people are in great need of support from both places. Even if Kurdistan declare themselves an independent country and sovereign state, for us the issue is to have good relations with Kurdistan, as a country, and also with Iraq, as a country. In that case we would have borders with both Erbil and Baghdad, so for us that is the big policy of the local strong powers today, what they decide to do and how they decide to do it, unfortunately there is a risk that could go to civil war, of course, because it would be a civil war, Kurdistan is an autonomous region in Iraq.

So it is quite difficult. I don't know which side people would like to choose, because unfortunately we have bad experience today from both sides.

Many people tend to think of the time when Saddam was ruling the country as a more peaceful time than today, although they knew he was a dictator. So you are familiar with the situation in Iraq and you can understand that the situation today is not good. Everybody was treated very badly under Saddam, but today it is not everybody, but certain groups are treated worse than others, certain groups are not given democratic rights, certain groups are not being defended the right way, certain groups have to rely on themselves even if they are not powerful enough. And if you take their powers from them, more and more, their situation is going to be very frustrating.

The more recent waves of persecution of Christians in Iraq have come from the Islamic State, but I remember at the time the people said that the ones who had taken their houses, were not IS, they were their Arabic neighbours. So it would seem that in the more recent years the more severe persecution came from the Sunni majority, whether Islamic State or the local Arabs. But I have also spoken many Christians from the region, many of whom off the record, and I asked them if they trust the Kurds, despite the fact that they fled to Kurdistan and the Kurds were the only ones who seemed determined to fight IS on the ground. And many of them answered saying that they remember that the Kurds also persecuted them in the past, so they are cautious. Is this your feeling as well, is there a feeling of suspicion between the Christians and the Kurds, or is this something of the past...

When you are looking forward to the future and to establish something you have trust in, and believe in for the future, you calculate with the past and your accumulated knowledge of what happened.

Of course we have very, very bad experience from each other. Both Arabs, Sunni and Shia or Kurds. In the Ottoman Empire, when Iraq was part of it, there were also Kurds persecuting us, as well as Arab Sunnis and Arab Shia. So I don't know today if we need to bring all those fears with us into the future, but at least we should know that this happened, not forget it, but we should forgive and continue to build a future together, along with the people living there, because obviously we cannot expel the people from there, the majority living there are Arab Sunni or Arab Shia or Kurds, so what we have to do is reconciliation.

Igreja vandalizada no Iraque

This is really important and we are working with that as the European Syriac Union also, along with other communities there, it is important to trust in the future, to trust in each other, what the Kurds and the Peshmerga did during the Islamic State invasion of the Nineveh Plain… Of course without them we would probably have lost everything, so we have to be thankful for that. But at the same time we know that they could obviously have done more for us, they could be standing there in the frontline, they could have given us weapons to defend ourselves along with them and probably, together, we could have fought ISIS before they became stronger, but to go into that issue of how and for what reason did ISIS become stronger and have the possibility to become stronger, as they have been for the past two years, that is a question which will take us too long to answer... And there are many conspiracy theories to look into of course...

Obviously people on the ground, whether Sunni or Shia, have also hurt us and whether Kurds or Arabs, they have also hurt us, but we need to trust in each other in some way, because we will be neighbours anyway, we need to build a common future together and that can be done with respect and democracy. And that quality type of living today does not exist in Iraq, nor in Kurdistan, really, because you can feel the tension, I have been in Kurdistan many times, and you can feel the tension, where you feel that you are not a first rate citizen, because you are not Kurd, because you are Chaldean, Syriac or Assyrian. And because you don't feel you belong to a strong party, because parties dominate Kurdistan today. More than the government dominating Kurdistan, it is the KDP that dominates Kurdistan. And that is also an issue...

What we would like to have is Mr. Barzani should stand up and say OK, if this is what the Chaldean/Syriac/Assyrians want, this is not a disputed area, this is your area, we give it over to you, we can help you, in what way do you need help from us?

And the same thing from Baghdad, because they have a decision from their ministers’ council from two years ago, they should say the thing: This is what you want, tell us how we can help you.

And then, I think the European Parliament, the United States Government and even the Russians would understand that this is ok, this is a good situation where we can also be supportive and find common solutions.

Of the five different militias that I found in my research, the Nineveh Plain Forces, the Nineveh Plain Protection Units, Dwekh Nawsha, Qaraqosh Protection Committee and the Tiger Guards... Are some of these considered pro-Kurd and others Pro-Baghdad?

In the end, whether they like to say that or not, some of us must be more pro-the side that gives us the permission to be a military militia.

The Nineveh Plain Units answer to the Government of Baghdad, the Ninevah Plain Forces are from Peshmerga ministry, from the Kurdistan region. This is why we operate in different places. If we belong to Peshmerga, obviously we cannot move in the areas where Baghdad moves, and vice versa.

Dwekh Nawsha is unfortunately a very, very small group and there are also the Nineveh Plain Guards Protection Units from Barzani's side also, the Chaldean Syriac Assyrian Popular Council. That is pro-Kurdistan, more obviously than the others.

Then you have the Syriac Falcons, newly established, by Salwon Momika, of the Syriac Democratic Union who was held hostage for almost two weeks recently, in fights. He established himself as a political party and also militia. The first movement within the Syriac Chaldean Assyrian group established in the liberated areas, and he faced problems, of course, and he was held captive, but now he was released.

But what is not working there, what we are obviously being stopped from, we made it clear to our militias, on behalf of the Syriac European Union, and along with Mr. Lars Adaktusson, that we need to find a common agenda for the military unification also, in order to become an army for the Nineveh Plain in the future. But of course neither Baghdad nor Erbil like this, and that is obvious. Maybe they don't like me to say that, but I will do it anyway.

Related: "Kurdish independence is necessary to avoid further atrocities"