This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my interview with Simon Kuper, author of several books on football and politics and economy, amongst others. The edited and published version can be found here, in Portuguese.
Esta é uma transcrição completa, no Inglês original, da minha entrevista a Simon Kuper, autor de vários livros sobre futebol e política e economia, entre outros. A reportagem publicada pode ser lida aqui.
It’s been 26 years since you wrote
Football against the Enemy, a book which argues that football is far more than
just a game. All these years later, have things changed?
I think
in some ways football has become more important in politics in the last few
years, because what you see around the world is that voters are becoming
distrustful of parties, so if you are a party politician it is harder to have
trust. You see that with Hillary Clinton, for example, and more and more you
see the Berlusconi phenomenon, where somebody comes from sport, or from
football, and says: "I am a respected figure in sport, I ran a sport club –
like Berlusconi, or Mauricio Macri –, or I played great football – like George
Weah – make me leader of your country".
As
parties become weaker, this sports route becomes more important. Donald Trump
has a background in professional wrestling, that helped him build a name among
working class Americans, George W. Bush in Baseball, and so on. So I think that
in some ways it has become a more common part of politics.
We tend to think that sports should be
free of outside influence. Is this possible? Does politics ruin football?
I
think it is very hard to imagine football without a political and social
meaning. What are the institutions in Portugal that get most people motivated
and build more loyalty? In all our countries we have seen churches become more
important and trade unions become less important, people know fewer people...
The institutions that have survived are often football clubs.
Clubs
like Benfica and Porto are some of the most powerful, most popular and most
beloved institutions in Portugal today, and of course those institutions are
not just sport. Benfica also represent Lisbon and the Benfica-Porto
relationship is also about the relationship about the two cities, which in
Portugal has been a very political relationship, which has caused a lot of
anger and mistrust.
So,
football is never just football, it always speaks to much wider tribes and divides
in society.
You mentioned the decline in Church
attendance and religious affiliation, for example. Some people compare football
to religion, do you put much stock in that?
There
are obviously huge differences. Football doesn't promise you an afterlife. I
don't think football is a religion in that it can't give full meaning to answer
the question of why we are on earth, at least for most people.
I
think the similarity is community. If you think of a parish church in Portugal
50 years ago, it was your community, those were the people you knew, you knew
them from birth to death, that was where you belonged, unquestionably, it was a
place of social support, place where you celebrated your big life events,
births, deaths, weddings, and of course, for most people in Portugal and in
Western Europe that has disappeared. So, for a lot of people the community is
now the football fandom, and that is true, even among people who don't go to
the stadium... I don't know what the average attendance at Benfica is, but let’s
say 50,000, but the number of Benfica fans is much higher, so a lot of those
people get a sense of identity, who I am, who is my tribe, in this new and
rather lonely world, from football.
You
see it in social media as well. If you look at how people describe themselves
on Facebook and on Twitter, often they say: "I am João, 21 years old,
Porto fan", and that is the identification that he gives. And you see it
also in third countries. "I am Mohammad, I live in Kuala Lumpur, 100%
Manchester United".
So,
the identity that they are presenting to the world, first, is football, and
that becomes more common as these other identities become weaker.
How familiar are you with Portuguese
football? What news reaches you?
I am
more aware of your national team, José Mourinho, Ronaldo, than of your club
football.
Surely you have heard of Football Leaks.
How familiar are you with this case?
Somewhat...
Rui Pinto, a criminal or a
whistleblower?
I'd
say that it is possible to be both.
I
just don't want to step into a field where I don't know the facts.
The past years have given us many
suspicions of corruption in Portuguese football. Sporting is involved in the “cashball”
case; opponents say Benfica’s leaked emails point to corruption and Porto was
at the center of the famous “Golden Whistle investigations” several years ago,
although the evidence was considered inadmissible because of illegal phone
taps. Fans always whine about corruption when their own teams are in the dumps.
In your experience, is corruption really that widespread in football in
general?
I
think historically Portugal has more of a problem than Northern European
leagues, and in the past, due maybe more to political interference. I think you
see that in the figure of Mourinho. Mourinho is a product of Portuguese
football and he knows all about all these fixes, or purported fixes, many of
which, I'm sure, are absolutely real.
So
when Mourinho comes to England he presumes it is the same system. So, Chelsea
are being nobbled by the BBC, and by Arsenal, and by the FA, and they are all
trying to arrange a bad fixture list for Chelsea with the wrong referees, and
Mourinho says these things partly to draw attention to himself – he is a kind
of verbal performer – but I think he also believes a lot of it. And in the
English context it is very bizarre, because almost nobody in English football
believes that sort of thing is happening in England.
So
people will get very angry at the referee, but they don't have this belief that
everything is fixed, everything is corrupt, and I think they are right, I think
that in most Northern European countries football is not fixed, not corrupt.
With a figure like Mourinho you see this Portuguese mindset of everything is
corrupt, transposed into a country where it just seems a bit bizarre.
Britain
has enormous flaws, enormous problems, but I don't think the whole football
system is secretly rigged, which he does seem to think.
Up to what point should the state be
involved in seeing its domestic football?
You
need a rule of law environment, so if people are fixing football matches, that
should be a crime. It is not a crime in all European countries. So you need a
robust law that says that if you fix a football match that is a criminal
offense, and then that needs enforcement, and that needs to have police
involvement.
But
in terms of running day-to-day football I'd be happier if it was done by a
football association that is separate from the state but overseen by the state.
Often, around the world, we see football federations that are completely
corrupt. Argentina, under Julio Gondona was an example where the money was just
stolen and none goes back into football, in those cases you need a state that
steps in.
So
the football federation should be regulated, but not state-run, ideally.
How about football violence? In Portugal
the current law, still being fully implemented, calls for segregated seating
for organized football firms (ultras), issuing of fan IDs, and calling for all
football supporter groups to be legalized and form associations if they intend
to benefit from club support. Do you know of any other country that has taken
these measures to try and fight football violence? What do you think of them?
The
thing is we know a lot about football violence because Britain had the
unfortunate distinction of being the first country where this was a big
problem.
So
from the 80s the British government has had 35 years, really, of trying to work
out what to do, and it has mostly been successful in that football violence in
Britain is much lower than it was.
I
think the football ID scheme is very damaging, because it makes it very
difficult for casual people to go to a football match. They did this in Italy
at one point. You have to have an ID, so if you and your friends decide one day
that you want to go to a football match it is impossible because you haven't
ordered your IDs weeks before and it is exactly the kind of casual fans you
want to encourage, as well as women, to keep the stadium atmosphere a bit less
insane and fanatical, which is the situation you'd have if you only had ultras.
So I think fan ID is just an obstacle to a majority of fans.
You
really only need to think about a small group of people. And the best way to
deal with these people is through the police. Because what you have in a
country like Portugal, Italy or Argentina, is that the ultras and the club are
very intertwined. So the ultras know where the club's president lives, the
president needs their support, he needs them not to be chanting against them,
money is often exchanged, favours are done, if they are violent then the
president doesn't dare to step in... These kinds of cosy relationships between
ultras and the club are very dangerous.
I
spoke to one Italian club president and he said: “What can we do? We are afraid
of these people”. The club doesn't have the resources to deal with criminals,
and when you are talking about hooligans doing violence that is criminal. You
need the police.
And
it is not very complicated, because you are not talking about very many people.
You don't want the police to worry about 50,000 people, because we are only
talking about 500. You want the police to know who those 500 are, if somebody
shouts something racist, or hits somebody, or throws a firework in the crowd,
that is all on CCTV now, we know exactly who those people are. One good thing
that has happened now in Britain is that the police come along on Monday
Morning and say they saw you shouting racist abuse, essentially the club then
bans you from the stadium and you have to report at the police station during a
match, so you can't go.
I
think we need a much more micro approach to those specific people, run by the
police, not by the club.
Here in Portugal we are often told about
the English example, and how Britain managed to eliminate hooliganism. Is that
true?
Very
largely, yes. People always say, well yes, but they fight outside the stadium,
but there is very little evidence of that. British society, like all Western
societies, has become much less violent in the last 25 years. You have far
fewer groups of young men getting completely drunk and hitting each other in
city centres, which was a normal thing around 1990, even leaving aside
football. So society is much more peaceful.
I would
happily take my children to any football match anywhere in Britain without
fear. And you get these stories about how the Cardiff fans are going to meet
the Swansea fans in a pub a mile from the stadium and they are going to have a
prearranged fight... Football hooligans like to talk this up, because it makes
them look macho, the police like to talk it up, because it retains funding for
anti-hooligan policing, and the media like to talk it up because it is an
exciting media story. But there is very little evidence of anything like that...
I mean, when was the last person killed in a hooligan battle in the UK? I am
sure there have been one or two in the last couple of decades, the only media
coverage I can remember is when Leeds fans went to Turkey and that happened in Istanbul.
Many English fans bemoan the fact that
with its effort to modernize and stomp out violence the FA and the Government
also, effectively, destroyed football as a popular sport, making it too refined
and too expensive for ordinary families or working-class people to attend. Your
thoughts?
You
must also remember that society has become less working-class since 1985, which
was the peak of football hooliganism, which was obviously not necessarily a working-class
activity, but this is a much richer country, just as Portugal is a much richer
country than in 1985. So people say oh, in the 1950s when my grandfather went,
and you look at those photos and it was men in cloth caps, from a different
era, men who worked in factories which no longer exist, there were no women, no
ethnic minorities, in the 80s it was still terrifying for ethnic minorities, so
we have a different country, also a different football audience, which is more
feminine, ethnic minorities are now safe in the stadiums. So I don't think that
safety and gentrification are the same thing. In Germany and Spain tickets are
still quite cheap, but it is also not dangerous, you can also go to a game in
Germany and pay 10 euros, often, for a big game, but you are safe. So I don't
think it necessarily goes together.
What
is true is that in Britain the stadiums are modernised and that attracted more
families and what had been a game for 17-year-old boys who were willing to put
up with terrible toilets and pushing in the stands and discomfort, has become
much more a kind of game for all age groups.
At
the top-level British football is very expensive, that's true, so going to
Arsenal or Chelsea will cost you an enormous amount of money, and they've
priced out the poor, but at the lower levels that's not really true.
Could you say that is where the pure
football remains, in the lower levels, the people's sport?
What
is the people's sport? I was never an Arsenal fan, but because I live near
there and my cousins are big fans, I've been to Arsenal quite a lot and you'd
see the crowds change over the decades. I first started watching Arsenal in the
80s and I see them occasionally now when I'm in London.
In
the 80s it was white men with working-class or lower middle-class accents, who
were not necessarily poor, many of them drove in from the suburbs. And now it
is a much more urban audience of modern londoners.
But
those older white men, living in the Northern suburbs of London, are still
largely there. And tickets for Arsenal are about the most expensive you can buy
in Europe, it is something like 1000 pounds a year for a season ticket, which
is around 1,100 or 1,200 euros. So it is a lot of money. But the average salary
in London is about 30,000 pounds. So if you are really an Arsenal fan, this is not
such a big deal. If you are big Arsenal fan you spend a big part of your social
life thinking about and talking about Arsenal, to pay 1,000 pounds a year is
not a big dissuasion for those people.
Remember
that the London region is still about the wealthiest in the EU. So when people
compare the old stadiums of the 80s or 70s with now, remember it is also a
different country, it is a much richer Europe that we inhabit, and football, to
some degree, reflects that.
Are football fans one of the last social
groups that you are allowed to discriminate against?
No,
I think that being a general football fan is a very popular and highly admired
thing to be. So you see football fans appearing in television adverts for cars,
you see politicians pretending to be football fans, or some of them really are
football fans. A football fan is a highly regarded figure in society, if you
think of the general person.
So
when the European championship starts this summer, on Portuguese TV you will
see endless advertisements for cars, for television screens which show people
wearing Portugal shirts and cheering goals, because that is now our image of
happiness and togetherness in society.
Around
ultras there is some demonization. Of course, not all ultras are violent at all,
but I think much less than before. I think social fear of hooliganism is
greatly reduced.
Before
every big tournament you used to have the fear that hooligans were going to
wreck everything. I lived in France during 2016 and during the Euro the great French
anxiety had nothing to do with hooligans, it was about terrorists. So the
obsession with hooligans has largely gone away. I think football fans have a
much better reputation, including ultras, than they have had for decades.
You were in France when Portugal won the
European Cup, did it surprise you?
I
have been around football long enough to know that there is a lot of chance in
football, so let me say, first of all, that I hugely admire Portuguese
football, but you have had much better national teams than in 2016.
When
I think back to the team of 2004, with players like Figo and Ronaldo, but also
Maniche and Miguel, Ricardo. I thought that was just a magnificent team. I am a
Holland fan, I grew up in Holland and I remember you beating us in the semis,
and it was 2-1, but really it was 5-1, Holland never had a chance. The way
Portugal keeps the ball, controls the game, Deco was a beautiful example of
that, to me that was some of the most beautiful football I'd ever seen.
In
2016 you didn't have that kind of team, it was a very beatable team. But
strange things happen in football. I think Portuguese football, like Dutch
football, is highly intelligent, which means that teams can win without having
very good players, because of good positioning. Portugal is very good at
controlling the tempo of the ball. Holland usually loses to Portugal because
Holland is used to controlling the tempo of the game. And then you play
Portugal and they do that, so it is very confusing.
So
I think that Portugal 2016, like Holland reaching the World Cup Final in 2010,
is a tribute to a football culture of high intelligence, that two not very good
teams went all the way, and of course you had Ronaldo, although he missed most
of the final, but went all the way based on a bit of luck and a lot of football
intelligence.
Portugal
deserve to win a trophy because you have an incredible football history, for
such a small country, so you didn't necessarily deserve to win in 2016, but you
had it coming.
Have you ever been to see any games in
Portugal?
Yes,
I took my kids to see Benfica-Marítimo a few years ago, it was a very pleasant
experience, I have to say. I like the stadium, it was relaxed.
I
went around Portugal during Euro 2004 and went to all sorts of towns that I'll
never go to again. I was in Braga, Coimbra, Porto, as well as Lisbon of course.
So just the joy of travelling around this beautiful country... That's one of
the things I love about these tournaments.
Fotos de Simon Kuper: Gustavo Lopes
Pereira/Clube de Lisboa