Voltei de férias, posso-me ir embora outra vez?

Antes de ir de férias falei várias vezes do caso McCarrick, nos EUA. O que para muitos parecia ser apenas uma crise localizada nos EUA revelou-se, como eu já imaginava, uma crise para a Igreja Global que hoje levou o Papa a convocar todos os presidentes de Conferências Episcopais para uma cimeira sobre abusos, em Fevereiro.

Isto no mesmo dia em que o sucessor de McCarrick anunciou que vai a Roma discutir a sua resignação e um relatório na Alemanha, revelado pela imprensa, mostra que houve pelo menos 3.700 casos de abusos sexuais naquele país nas últimas sete décadas.

Neste momento os bispos americanos preparam-se para viajar para Roma para discutir estes assuntos mais directamente com o Papa também e o secretário pessoal de Bento XVI disse ontem, numa data apropriada, que os abusos são o 11 de Setembro da Igreja.

Por cá, os bispos continuam a confiar que as directrizes já aprovadas chegam para lidar com eventuais casos de abusos. Esperemos que tenham razão.

O tema dos abusos continua a merecer atenção por parte dos autores dos artigos do The Catholic Thing. Anthony Esolen dá um murro na mesa neste artigo e o padre Vaverek considera que o que está verdadeiramente em causa é uma crise de abuso de autoridade.

Temos também dois artigos do jovem Casey Chalk. No primeiro ele aconselha-nos a, no meio da tempestade, rezar mais e com mais força e, no de hoje, adverte para o perigo de, no meio dos pedidos de responsabilização, não “protestantizar” a Igreja.

É mesmo #melhorcontigo

Demitiu-se o responsável pela comunicação da Santa Sé. Monsenhor Dario Viganò não resistiu à polémica da carta de Bento XVI. Tudo explicado aqui.

A Europa está cada vez mais secularizada. Em alguns países mais de 90% dos jovens não se identificam com qualquer religião. Até aqui, nada de grandes surpresas, mas parece que Portugal está a resistir a esta tendência e os nossos jovens são substancialmente mais religiosos que nuestros hermanos do outro lado da fronteira, por isso nem tudo é mau!

O Papa Francisco vai a Dublin em Agosto para o encontro mundial das famílias.

E hoje é dia Mundial de Trissomia da Síndrome de Down. Foi com o maior gosto que pude dar notícia desta belíssima iniciativa, porque verdadeiramente, o mundo é #melhorcontigo. Com todos eles.

Hoje há artigo novo do The Catholic Thing em que o grande David Warren explica como é que apesar das suas más experiências numa escola católica no Paquistão – onde foi obrigado a ir à missa por ser branco, depois espancado pelos religiosos por ter ido à missa quando descobriram que afinal ele era protestante – ficaram as sementes que levariam à sua conversão, décadas mais tarde. É sempre um prazer ler este senhor, não percam!

Lisbon's document on the reception of chapter VIII of the apostolic exhortation “Amoris Laetitia”

This is the full text of the document published on February 6th by the Patriarchate of Lisbon, regarding application of chapter VIII of Amoris laetitia. The translation is not official, it was entirely done by me, if you quote or use it, please credit with link or my name (Filipe d'Avillez).

Passages of AL and all other official documents are from the original English translations available on the Vatican website. The only exception is the Pope's letter to the bishops of Buenos Aires and Agostino Vallini's norms for the diocese of Rome, which were translated by me.

Note on the reception of chapter VIII of the apostolic exhortation “Amoris Laetitia”

1. In his post-synodal apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia, concerning love in the family (AL), published on March 19th 2016, Pope Francis gives us a general Christian framework for understanding marriage and the family and some useful indications on the respective preparation and accompaniment. In chapter VIII - Accompanying, discerning and integrating weakness – he does not forget the fragile situations, especially the so-called “irregular” ones, in which the marriage was followed by rupture and a civil marriage. These people also should be accompanied: “Priests have the duty to “accompany [the divorced and remarried] in helping them to understand their situation according to the teaching of the Church and the guidelines of the bishop” (AL, 300).

This is my aim with this note, in which I refer directly to three authorised documents: Amoris Laetitia, the correspondence between the Bishops of the Pastoral Region of Buenos Aires and Pope Francis and the indications given to the priests of the Pope’s diocese (Rome) by his Cardinal-vicar. Naturally, these documents should be read in full.

Besides all alse that should be done in the scope of the church, including the diocesan tribunal, the following should be noted: “Conversation with the priest, in the internal forum, contributes to the formation of a correct judgment on what hinders the possibility of a fuller participation in the life of the Church and on what steps can foster it and make it grow. Given that gradualness is not in the law itself (cf. Familiaris Consortio, 34), this discernment can never prescind from the Gospel demands of truth and charity, as proposed by the Church. For this discernment to happen, the following conditions must necessarily be present: humility, discretion and love for the Church and her teaching, in a sincere search for God’s will and a desire to make a more perfect response to it” (AL, 300).

And, regarding the forming of conscience: “Naturally, every effort should be made to encourage the development of an enlightened conscience, formed and guided by the responsible and serious discernment of one’s pastor, and to encourage an ever greater trust in God’s grace. Yet conscience can do more than recognize that a given situation does not correspond objectively to the overall demands of the Gospel. It can also recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal. In any event, let us recall that this discernment is dynamic; it must remain ever open to new stages of growth and to new decisions which can enable the ideal to be more fully realized” (AL, 303)

It is against this background that the Pope says: “Because of forms of conditioning and mitigating factors, it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end” (AL, 305). This section adds, in footnote 351, “In certain cases, this can include the help of the sacraments.”

We should note the restrictive character (in certain cases) and the conditional nature “can” of the sentence. And the Pope further insists: “In order to avoid all misunderstanding, I would point out that in no way must the Church desist from proposing the full ideal of marriage, God’s plan in all its grandeur […] Today, more important than the pastoral care of failures is the pastoral effort to strengthen marriages and thus to prevent their breakdown” (AL, 307).

2. On September 5th 2016, the Bishops of the Pastoral Region of Buenos Aires published a Note with basic criteria for the application of chapter VIII of Amoris Laetitia. In a letter written that same day, the Pope thanked them for the document in these terms. “The text is very good and fully lays out the meaning of chapter VIII of Amoris Laetitia. There are no other interpretations”. The recente publication of these documents in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, CVIII/10 (2017) p. 1071 and following, requires our indispensable reception. The text were published in Portuguese in Lumen, September/October 2016, P. 73 and following.

Granted this authority, the note gives us a sequence of application of the chapter, of which I highlight the following passages:

a) Regarding the purpose: “Firstly, we should remember that it is not right to speak of giving ‘permission’ for access to the sacraments, but rather of a discernment process under the guidance of a pastor. This is a ‘personal and pastoral discernment’ (AL, 300)”. And also “This path does not necessarily end with receiving the sacraments, but may lead to other ways of achieving further integration into the life of the Church: a more active presence in the community, participation in prayer or reflection groups, or giving time to church activities etc. (cf. AL 299).”

b) As for the process: “…the priest may suggest a decision to live in continence. Amoris Laetitia does not ignore the difficulties arising from this option (cf. footnote 329) and offers the possibility of having access to the Sacrament of Reconciliation if the partners fail in this purpose (cf. footnote 364, recalling the teaching that Saint John Paul II sent to Cardinal W. Baum, dated 22 March, 1996). It continues: “In other, more complex cases, and when a declaration of nullity has not been obtained, the above mentioned option may not, in fact, be feasible. Nonetheless, a path of discernment is still possible. If it comes to be recognized that, in a specific case, there are limitations that mitigate responsibility and culpability (cf. 301-302), especially when a person believes they would incur a subsequent wrong by harming the children of the new union, Amoris Laetitia offers the possibility of access to the sacraments of Reconciliation and Eucharist (cf. footnotes 336 and 351). These sacraments, in turn, dispose the person to continue maturing and growing with the power of grace.

c) Meanwhile, the note proceeds: “But we have to avoid understanding this possibility as an unlimited access to the sacraments, as if all situations warrant it. The idea is to properly discern each case. For example, special care is called for in “a new union arising from a recent divorce” or in “the case of someone who has consistently failed in his obligations to the family” (298). Also, when there is a sort of justification or ostentation of the person’s situation “as if it were part of the Christian ideal” (297). In these difficult cases, we should be patient companions, looking for ways of integrating them (cf. 297, 299) […] Where there are unresolved injustices, providing access to sacraments is particularly scandalous.

d) To these observations, the following are added: “t may be right for eventual access to sacraments to take place privately, especially where situations of conflict might arise. But at the same time, we have to accompany our communities in their growing understanding and welcome, without this implying creating confusion about the teaching of the Church on the indissoluble marriage.”

e) And the discernment process is to continue, without giving up on the proposal of Christian marriage in its entirety: “Discernment is not closed, because it “is dynamic; it must remain ever open to new stages of growth and to new decisions which can ena­ble the ideal to be more fully realized” (303), according to the “law of gradualness” (295) and with confidence in the help of grace.”

We can also conclude that, for the bishops who sign this note, discernment should not focus only on what happened or still does happen, but should aim for full configuration to the gospel truth on marriage: see Mt 5, 31-32; 19, 3-9; Mk 10, 2-12; Lk 16, 18.

3. Very soon afterwards, on September 19th 2016, the then Papal Cardinal Vicar for the Diocese of Rome, Agostino Vallini, spoke on this issue at the dioceses’ pastoral congress. Regarding these cases and the role of the priest, who neither replaces nor disregards conscience, he said the following: “How should this opening be understood? Surely not in the sense of indiscriminate access to the sacraments, as sometimes happens, but as a discernment which adequately distinguishes, case by case. Who can decide? Based on the content of the text and the mens of its author, I see no other solution but the internal forum. Indeed, the internal forum is a favourable path to open the heart to the most intimate confidences and, if a relationship of trust is built up over time with a confessor or spiritual guide, it is possible to begin and develop with him a long, patient itinerary of conversion, made up of small steps and progressive checks. Therefore, it can be no other than the confessor, at a certain point, who in his conscience, following much reflection and prayer, takes upon himself the responsibility before God and the penitent, to ask that the sacraments be received in a reserved manner. In these cases the discernment does not end (cf. AL, 303: dynamic discernment) in order to reach new levels on the route to the fullness of the Christian ideal”. And he added: “The very delicate task of discerning, case by case, the will of God regarding these people requires that we, priests, prepare ourselves well so as to be capable of making these serious decisions”. This preparation is extendable to “lay pastoral agents”.

4. While insisting on the cordial and respectful welcoming of all people, especially the mentioned cases, Pope Francis hopes above all to underscore the value of Christian marriage and the need to prepare and accompany it. This is an insistence taken up all through Amoris laetitia, as can be seen from excerpts such as this one: “As Christians, we can hardly stop advocating marriage simply to avoid countering contemporary sensibilities, or out of a desire to be fashionable or a sense of helplessness in the face of human and moral failings. We would be depriving the world of values that we can and must offer” (AL, 35).

Both before and after the celebration of the marriage, Pope Francis refers to its binding character: “Both short-term and long-term marriage preparation should ensure that the couple do not view the wedding ceremony as the end of the road, but instead embark upon marriage as a lifelong calling based on a firm and realistic decision to face all trials and difficult moments together”, and, close to the end: “marital spirituality is a spirituality of the bond, in which divine love dwells.” (AL, 315).

Those who follow Pope Francis’ magisterium will be aware of this insistence. Na insistence we should share, in order to be faithful to his intention. Even more recently: “Unfortunately, it is a fact that, especially in the West, the family is considered an obsolete institution.  Today fleeting relationships are preferred to the stability of a definitive life project.  But a house built on the sand of frail and fickle relationships cannot stand.  What is needed instead is a rock on which to build solid foundations.  And this rock is precisely that faithful and indissoluble communion of love that joins man and woman, a communion that has an austere and simple beauty, a sacred and inviolable character and a natural role in the social order.” (Speech to the diplomatic corps, January 2018).

5. "Bearing all this in mind, I present herein some operative guidelines: a) To accompany and integrate people into the life of the community, in line with the post-synodal Apostolic Exhortations Familiaris Consortio, 84, Sacramentum Caritatis, 29 and Amoris Laetitia, 299 (see appendix). b) Carefully examine the specificity of each case. c) Not to exclude recourse to the diocesan tribunal, whenever there is doubt concerning the validity of the marriage. d) In cases in which validity is ascertained, not to neglect the proposal of a life in continence in the new situation. e) To bear in mind exceptional circumstances and the possibility of the sacraments, in line with the aforementioned apostolic exhortation and documents. f) To continue the process of discernment, bringing the practice ever closer to the ideal of Christian marriage and sacramental consistency.”

Meeting of Vicars, February 6th, 2018

+ Manuel, Cardinal Patriarch

Appendix:

• St. John Paul II, Familiaris Consortio, 84: “Together with the Synod, I earnestly call upon pastors and the whole community of the faithful to help the divorced, and with solicitous care to make sure that they do not consider themselves as separated from the Church, for as baptized persons they can, and indeed must, share in her life. They should be encouraged to listen to the word of God, to attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, to persevere in prayer, to contribute to works of charity and to community efforts in favor of justice, to bring up their children in the Christian faith, to cultivate the spirit and practice of penance and thus implore, day by day, God's grace. Let the Church pray for them, encourage them and show herself a merciful mother, and thus sustain them in faith and hope.”

• Benedict XVI, Sacramentum Caritatis, 29: “… Yet the divorced and remarried continue to belong to the Church, which accompanies them with special concern and encourages them to live as fully as possible the Christian life through regular participation at Mass, albeit without receiving communion, listening to the word of God, eucharistic adoration, prayer, participation in the life of the community, honest dialogue with a priest or spiritual director, dedication to the life of charity, works of penance, and commitment to the education of their children.” 

• Francis, Amoris Laetitia, 299: I am in agreement with the many Synod Fathers who observed that “the baptized who are divorced and civilly remarried need to be more fully integrated into Christian communities in the variety of ways possible, while avoiding any occasion of scandal. The logic of integration is the key to their pastoral care, a care which would allow them not only to realize that they belong to the Church as the body of Christ, but also to know that they can have a joyful and fruitful experience in it. They are baptized; they are brothers and sisters; the Holy Spirit pours into their hearts gifts and talents for the good of all. Their participation can be expressed in different ecclesial services, which necessarily requires discerning which of the various forms of exclusion currently practised in the liturgical, pastoral, educational and institutional framework, can be surmounted. Such persons need to feel not as excommunicated members of the Church, but instead as living members, able to live and grow in the Church and experience her as a mother who welcomes them always, who takes care of them with affection and encourages them along the path of life and the Gospel. This integration is also needed in the care and Christian upbringing of their children, who ought to be considered most important”

"I don't look Portuguese, but I feel Portuguese"

Burmese Catholics at Papal mass

This is a full transcript, in the original English, of my conversation with Mr. James Swe, a Burmese Catholic of Portuguese descent and member of the "Bayingyi" community. Mr. Swe is also author of the book Cannon Soldiers of Burma about the Portuguese presence in the country. The interview was used in two stories which can be read here, and here, in Portuguese.

Most people in the world will never have heard of the Bayingyi. Who are they?

They call the Catholics in Burma Bayingyis. Historians say that Bayingyis came from Frankies, the Europeans were called Frankies during the Crusades by the Arab and Middle Eastern people, and when the Christians came to Asia they were known as the Frankies, and then slowly the Burmese changed the name to Bayingyis. So in Burma right now all these descendants of the Portuguese are called Bayingyis.

And you are a descendant of these people?

Yes. They were here about three or four hundred years ago, and I am one of the descendants of the villages, I came from Chanthaywa, near the first Portuguese settlement in 1613.

All this was close to 500 years ago. What kinship do the Bayingyi feel to Portugal today?

To tell you the truth, they don't understand too much about it. Most of them, the people living in the villages, don't even know where Portugal is. But they are very proud of the fact that they are descended from the Portuguese. The reason is that in Burmese history, the expansion of Burmese influence and power is because of the Portuguese descendants who served the Burmese kings as cannon men and gunners. Because the Burmese were fighting with bows and arrows and knives against their enemies, and when the Portuguese came, with the guns and cannons, they won their wars and expanded all over Asia. That is why they are very proud of it.

In what characteristics can this Portuguese heritage still be seen?

There are very few little signs left. The main thing is the Catholic faith. All of the Catholics are Portuguese descendants. All the churches... Even the first Cardinal we have in Burma right now, Charles Bo, is also one of their descendants. He is also my cousin.

How about clothing, cooking, and vocabulary?

There are very few things left, like vindaloo, making sausages, in most of the villages they know how to make pork sausages, just like the Portuguese had done many hundred years ago. That is how things carry on through the generations. A lot of that continues with the cooking and the religion, some of the traditions.

You can see the features of some of the people, they are quite fair, have blue eyes and green eyes, but there are very few of those left because they have been living in a very hot and remote area for centuries and their skin colour changed a little bit. These are the only traces left right now.

The Bayangyi were considered elite and loyal soldiers. Is there still a military tradition? Are any represented in senior posts in the armed forces at the moment?

The last Catholic general in the Burmese military was general Abel, which was about 20 years ago, but he has retired now. He was the last one to be in a prominent military position.

Is there any contact, recognition or interest on the part of current Portuguese authorities in relation to the descendants of the Portuguese in Burma?

The first contact I had with them was with the previous Portuguese ambassador to Burma. His name was Mr. Luís de Sousa. He was very interested, because when he saw my book he read it and he invited me to his residence in Thailand, my wife and I went there, and we discussed many things. Then he went to the villages and he visited with his family and showed his children, saying these people had lived in these remote areas for the last 400 years, so they were very touched.

That was the first contact the villages had with the Portuguese Government or representatives. But now this new ambassador, Mr. Francisco, he is also very interested. I told him last time to come and visit, during the Pope's trip to Burma, but I think he is busy right now, he is looking after three countries as Portuguese ambassador to Thailand, to Burma and to Vietnam, I believe. So he has to go on rotating the countries. So he is busy, but he said if he has the chance he would come down to Burma some time.

This is the first contact the Portuguese villages had with the Portuguese government.

Have you ever even been to Portugal?

I was there about four times, because when I was writing my book I went there quite a few times to do research. There is a lady called Ana Guedes, who stayed in Burma for a long time doing her own research. So I went there to contact her as well.

What was it like for you?

For me, the first feeling I had when I arrived in Portugal was that we were being reunited to Portugal. After 400 years, even though my forefathers from 400 years ago never new if they would get back to Portugal, but after 400 years I, as their spiritual heir, arrived back in Portugal. That is how I felt it. Even though I don't look like a Portuguese person, I feel like it, like I was back home.

Would you say that for most of your people this kinship has less to do with geography, and is of a more spiritual nature?

A lot of things yes. Spiritual things like the Catholic religion are deeply embedded in our culture. All these villages are very firm Catholics, very conservative Catholics, so that is a very strong position, we carry on as Portuguese descendants. It is a very important thing.

What do your people expect from the Pope’s visit?

They are very excited. It is almost like a miracle for them. Most of the people cannot afford to go to Rome, and the Pope is going to meet them, and they are very anxious to meet the Pope. They will see him from a very far distance, but they are really excited. They are talking about between two and three hundred thousand, minimum, people showing up there. All these villages are planning to come, with busses and trains and planes right now.

As Christians, you are a minority in Burma. Currently another minority, the Rohyngia, have been in the news, with accusations of genocide levelled at the Armed Forces. What is your opinion on what is going on there?

Rohingyas is just a name that they created. Some of them have been in Burma for a long time, some of them since the Portuguese were there, but they are not Rohingya, they are Bengalis, the people from Bangladesh.

When their population grew to fast they started having problems with the Budhists. Budhists are also very conservative people, there was a clash between the Budhists and Muslims in that area.

For us, as Christians, we don't want to get too involved, complaining to any sides. That is why our Cardinal Charles Bo asked the Pope not to use the word Rohingya, because Rohingya is not recognised in Burma as a race, or ethnicity. We have so many ethnic groups in Burma, they don't want to create another one.

But we always try to help them, even the Church is helping them to resettle. We Christians always try to be neutral in these religious and cultural conflicts.

Is there a history of intolerance and conflict between the Budhist majority and the Christians, for example?

During the military government, around 50 or 60 years ago, they nationalised about 32 schools and six hospitals which were run by the Catholic Church. The Government took them over and never returned them. Also, during that time the Churches were not allowed to rebuild or even be maintained, we couldn't even paint them. Only now, with this new government, since 2011 did they allow us to remodel and repaint the churches. It was very hard before, but now it is more relaxed with regard to the churches. 


Further reading

• "Católicos na Birmânia e no Bangladesh sentem-se (legitimamente) portugueses"

"Católicos na Birmânia e no Bangladesh sentem-se (legitimamente) portugueses"

Aqui podem ler a transcrição integral da minha conversa com o historiador Miguel Castelo Branco, a propósito da importância da presença portuguesa na Birmânia e no Bangladesh. Esta entrevista serviu de base para três reportagens, que podem ser lidas aqui, aqui e aqui.

O Papa viaja nos próximos dias para a Birmânia e para o Bangladesh. São dois destinos em que o catolicismo está muito ligado a Portugal…

O primeiro contacto que tiveram com o Ocidente foi com portugueses, muito embora alguns digam que por lá, ocasionalmente pudesse ter chegado algum mercador genovês ou veneziano. Mas a presença impressiva, que deixou sulco e que ainda deixa sulco por todas as comunidades católicas – atrever-me-ia mesmo a dizer do Cabo ao Japão – foram profundamente inspiradas pela matriz do Catolicismo português, porque há estruturas sociais, mentais e de valores que extravasam o campo estritamente religioso e que têm uma marca profunda de Portugal.

No caso da Birmânia desde meados do Século XVI foram chegando portugueses, não propriamente portugueses organizados, porque não eram funcionários ou servidores do Estado da Índia, e que se fizeram no actual Myanmar como soldados.

Mas há aqui uma série de outras questões engraçadas, que dariam um filme por exemplo, dos aventureiros mercenários portugueses, dois dos quais até se transformaram em reis locais.

Há o caso do Sebastião Tibau, que é um rapaz novo, de 20 anos, que chega à Índia, deserta imediatamente e põe-se ao serviço do Rei do Arracão, que é esta região onde há actualmente este problema dos Rohingyas, chama-se Rakhine. E ele transforma-se lentamente num rei pirata de uma ilha que fica no Golfo de Bengala, em frente ao Bangladesh, onde termina o Bangladesh começa Myanmar.

Ele foi rei de Sundiva, depois é claro que com tantas traições e mudanças de campo acabou por ser destruído pelos birmaneses.  E depois há o famosíssimo Rei do Sirião, ou rei do Pegú, que é um Filipe Brito de Nicote, no primeiro quartel do século XVII, e que era também um mercenário, que ganhou tanto relevo que acabou por ser investido como Senhor do Sirião. Sirião fica no Pegú, o extremo sul da Tailândia, perto do mar de Andaman. Mas a partir do momento em que extravasou a sua lealdade para com o Rei do Arracão...

Tudo isto no que é actualmente a Birmânia?

A Birmânia antigamente, assim de forma muito simplista, eram dois reinos. O Arracão, actualmente o Rakhine – aquele Estado onde está em curso aquele problema dos rohingyas – e o norte, a Birmânia interior, que era o Reino de Ava.

Filipe Brito de Nicote servia o Arracão, mas a partir do momento em que excedeu em liberdade em autonomia, foi eliminado. Temos aqui dois casos de soldados práticos que não têm nada a ver com o Estado da Índia nem com as relações diplomáticas, informais, entre Portugal e a Birmânia.

Esses são dois casos isolados e curiosos. Mas há depois uma presença mais organizada que acaba por ter uma grande influência na história da Birmânia...

Onde há portugueses à solta – que era o nome que se lhes dava – geravam espontaneamente comunidades ditas portuguesas. Casavam com mulheres locais e os filhos recebiam educação portuguesa, o que quer dizer a religião dos portugueses, católica. E por conseguinte, ao fim de 20 ou 30 anos geravam-se os chamados bandéis, que são povoados inteiramente ocupados por esta população mista, neste caso luso-birmanesa, como na actual Tailândia, luso-siamesa e por todo o lado assim aconteceu.

Eram comunidades que desabrochavam espontaneamente e que eram especializadas, isto é, estas comunidades tinham uma função no quadro das monarquias locais. Eram soldados, eram intérpretes (não nos esqueçamos que o português era a língua franca internacional. Até ao Século XIX os ingleses, holandeses e franceses, tinham de aprender português para poderem negociar nessa região, uma região vasta, que vai praticamente até Timor. O inglês é uma coisa muito recente), eram bons agentes diplomáticos para receber europeus, porque dominavam o processo de negociação e conheciam as manhas dos ocidentais, e eram também fundidores.

Até ao século XIX, no caso da Birmânia, estas comunidades, que eram numerosas, tinham um estatuto muito privilegiado e eram muito protegidas pelas monarquias budistas – como é o caso da Tailândia e da Birmânia – que são aliadas dos portugueses, mas no sentido em que há forças que são intermediárias entre Portugal e essas monarquias e essas forças locais, sociais, são estas comunidades católicas.

Claro que com o aumento da expressão demográfica destas minorias católicas portuguesas, porque era assim que eram tratados – a religião dos portugueses era o Catolicismo, logo o Catolicismo só era próprio dos portugueses – eles tiveram de pedir assistência religiosa e assim várias ordens religiosas, nomeadamente os jesuítas, os agostinhos, os franciscanos enviaram missionários e criaram-se missões.

Ainda há quem recorde a presença dos portugueses naquele país? O que é que lá ficou?

Ainda há uma comunidade compacta. Eles foram distribuídos pelo território, por vários motivos históricos.

A França e a Alemanha daquela região são respectivamente a Birmânia e a Tailândia, e estavam em constantes guerras. Como havia portugueses de um e de outro lado, ao serviço das monarquias, o princípio não era matá-los, era capturá-los, porque nas guerras asiáticas desse tempo a lógica não era exterminar o inimigo, era aprisionar o inimigo, porque havia uma falta crónica de mão-de-obra e de gente e sabiam que estes arcabuzeiros, estes atiradores portugueses eram muito bons, pelo que tentavam capturá-los e cobriam-nos de regalias.

Estando de um lado ou de outro, sendo capturado por um lado ou por outro, sabiam que não seriam mal-tratados.

Actualmente ainda há vestígios razoavelmente importantes. Quem leu as “Burmese Days”, de Orwell, encontra esta figura do português, aquilo a que os ingleses chamavam desdenhosamente “Black Portuguese”, com o seu racismo, porque de facto essas populações foram hostilizadas sobretudo pelas potências coloniais, não foram pelos estados independentes que subsistiram até ao século XIX. No caso da Tailândia felizmente nunca foi colonizada até ao Século XX.

Actualmente estes descendentes vivem alguns em Rangum, que foi até há pouco a capital do Myanmar, mudou para Naipindau, e no Norte. Eles foram acompanhando a monarquia Birmanesa no seu recuo para o interior. Sobretudo no Século XIX quando os ingleses chegaram para invadir pela primeira vez a Birmânia – a Birmânia era um grande Estado, foi agredida três vezes militarmente pelos ingleses até desaparecer, três guerras sucessivas no século XIX – a população católica acompanhou os seus reis, os seus reis budistas, até Mandalay. No Norte do país, perto do Rio Mo, há ainda uma numerosa população portuguesa, com os seus padres católicos, descendentes de portugueses.

Ainda há um ano na Faculdade de Direito, a Nova Portugalidade organizou uma conferência que teve por convidado Sua Alteza Real o Sr. D. Duarte, e ele falou sobre as comunidades e as cristandades portuguesas no Oriente e lembrou que todos os bispos da região têm ascendência portuguesa, o que de facto mostra que são comunidades que mantiveram a sua lealdade e a sua lealdade é tripla: É uma lealdade nacional, porque eles são bons patriotas e bons cidadãos dos países onde nasceram; uma lealdade à sua religião, são católicos, e uma lealdade emocional a Portugal, coisa que certamente nas Necessidades ninguém se lembrará.

São comunidades extremamente importantes e continuam a ser, sobretudo na Tailândia, onde ocupam funções de grande relevo no serviço público.

Neste momento há uma crise humanitária com os Rohingya... Quais são as raízes históricas do que se está a passar aí?

Creio que há uma grande parcialidade, para não dizer uma grande manipulação, em relação á questão dos refugiados rohingyas. Para o Governo birmanês eles não são birmaneses, isto é, não são cidadãos do Myanmar. Chamam-lhes bengalis, porque vieram do Golfo de Bengal.

Acontece que a questão é antiga e é recente. É antiga porque de facto há referências esparsas, de viajantes ingleses, sobretudo, à existências desses rohingyas já no século XVIII. Como era prática no quadro do império, o Raj britânico, havia mudanças de população. Os ingleses levaram para a Malásia milhares, que agora são milhões, de chineses, como levaram para o Uganda indianos, como levaram chineses também para a actual Singapura e levaram estes bengalis para o ocidente de Myanmar, para este Estado de Rakhine.

O que acontece é que durante a Segunda Guerra Mundial a Birmânia tornou-se independente. Teve um Governo fabricado pelos japoneses para demonstrar que o Japão estava na dianteira do processo de luta contra o imperialismo ocidental. Os birmaneses aceitaram naturalmente essa graça da independência e foram fiéis aliados dos japoneses. Quando voltaram os ingleses em 45 já estavam com problemas na Índia, iniciaram o processo de independência da Índia e depois da Birmânia. E ao saírem entregaram todas as armas que tinham aos muçulmanos, ditos rohingyas, que agora estão no centro dos noticiários.

Acontece que entre 1948, data da independência da Birmânia, e os anos 60, estes muçulmanos desenvolveram uma guerra de guerrilha intensíssima que foi, finalmente, vencida pelo Exército birmanês.

Agora, uma coisa que as pessoas não sabem é porque é que o Governo do Bangladesh e o Governo da Índia hostilizam de uma forma tão notória os chamados rohingyas. Porquê? Porque o braço armado da chamada resistência rohingya é o nome local para a Al-Qaeda.

Os rohingyas não são só alvo de perseguição, têm morrido milhares de budistas, impalados, queimados vivos, com templos destruídos, pelo chamado exército de defesa rohingya. Portanto os rohingya armados são outro nome para a Al-Qaeda.

Não devemos de uma forma tão afirmativa separar os bons dos maus, porque aqui há de facto um problema grave. Há um problema de populações, um problema de sofrimento humano, mas parece-me que, ao contrário do que se diz, a senhora Aung San Su Kyi tem tentado de uma forma razoavelmente cordata – no pressuposto de que Estado algum aceita uma secessão de uma parte do seu território. Se acontecesse connosco no Algarve ou nos Açores, ou com os espanhóis na Catalunha, a posição do Estado é mais dura – mas não me parece que da parte dela e da parte da grande maioria da população, e sobretudo dos agentes políticos birmaneses, haja qualquer expressão de ódio em relação aos muçulmanos.

Não está em curso uma guerra religiosa, ao contrário do que muitas pessoas julgam. A situação não é tão clara como parece e há, no caso dos rohingyas, um fantasma, um espectro oculto, que é a Al-Qaeda, que também está em Mindanao nas Filipinas, que está no Sul da Tailândia, portanto a questão não é tão linear como alguns pretendem fazer crer.

Independentemente disso, que dá contexto, as imagens que vimos dos refugiados, das tragédias, da limpeza étnica...

Eu não sei se será limpeza étnica, mas há de facto um nível de violência inaceitável.

Mas conviria estudar e saber in loco, porque ao contrário do que o senso comum, que muitas vezes tem um peso imenso, pretende fazer crer, os especialistas na matéria birmanesa tomam todos partido pelo Governo da Birmânia. Estou a falar de grandes autoridades, historiadores, sociólogos e antropólogos e etnólogos, que conhecem profundamente Rakhine, que é o estado onde estão a acontecer estes problemas, e todos eles tomam partido.

Eu creio que tal como aconteceu na Síria, seria conveniente saber quem é quem e saber quem é que faz o quê. Ainda me lembro que há quatro ou cinco anos era impossível falar na Síria sem ter de despejar uma torrente de impropérios sobre o Governo de Bashar al-Assad, quando para nós, católicos e cristãos, era a entidade que estava a defender as cristandades existentes na Síria. Portanto eu creio que é necessário muitas vezes tentar perceber um pouco e ouvir as autoridades certas e no caso da Birmânia aquilo que me parece é que houve um grande exagero, como há estas explosões emocionais, que são próprias, mas que não são esclarecedoras. E depois é necessário dar voz, e ouvir as pessoas que conhecem, sobretudo ocidentais, sem parcialidade e sem cegueiras, para que possam dizer-nos exactamente o que é que está a acontecer.

Temos depois o Bangladesh onde, segundo o embaixador em Lisboa, ainda existem 1.500 palavras portuguesas no vocabulário e o principal bispo tem o apelido D’Rozário… Fica surpreendido ao saber estas coisas?

Há uma grande comunidade, aliás, Calcutá, que foi – creio que ainda será – a maior cidade indiana, onde os ingleses se fixaram depois no Século XVII para XVIII, foi criada pelos portugueses. De Calcutá para Leste, ali na foz do Bramaputra, constituíram esses tais bandéis, esses tais acampamentos dos portugueses. A maior cidade portuária, que é agora especialista mundial em desfazer navios, que é Chitacong, foi criada pelos portugueses. E o Bangladesh tem esta curiosidade, tem de facto uma minoria católica forte, muito resistente até à pressão islâmica, o que é um caso notável de sobrevivência. Mas essa presença portuguesa está lá desde o século XVI, também.

Temos alguns piratas e que desenvolvem uma actividade importante, porque escoam os produtos dessas regiões, portanto tornaram-se úteis, ao contrário do que diz alguma historiografia anglo-saxónica, não são parasitas, pelo contrário, são agentes de reprodução de riqueza, dai serem tão estimados.

A India durante 400 anos foi governada pelo chamado Império o Grão Moghol. O Grão Moghol hostilizava os cristãos, mas protegia os portugueses, porque sabia que tinham esta faculdade, eram agentes importantes dinamizadores do comércio e da riqueza. No caso do Bangladesh, um país que se inunda com facilidade, os portugueses penetraram ligeiramente no interior.

Os portugueses não foram os únicos europeus a ter interesses, comércio e a deixar um legado na Ásia. Mas este fenómeno de orgulho nas raízes portuguesas que vemos na Birmânia, na Tailândia, etc. acontece também com ingleses, holandeses, franceses?

No caso holandês e inglês não, decididamente, porque a própria expressão da sua presença e até a sua própria ideologia é marcada por uma profunda desconfiança em relação àquilo. O Grócio dizia que os portugueses eram uma raça decaída, um povo caído, porque se misturavam com os animais. Isto mostra um bocadinho o tipo de atitude holandês e inglês em relação aos povos de pele escura.

No caso dos franceses é tardia, porque a França tem sobretudo uma presença na Índia em Puducherri, a mestiçagem é muito pequena, e depois a França só volta de facto a ter algum impacto no sudeste asiático a partir da década de 60 da década XIX.

No caso português é diferente. As populações católicas que se orgulham das suas raízes portuguesas são imensas. E até têm a faculdade de resgatar do isolamento e da sua condição social marginal os mestiços feitos pelos ingleses e pelos holandeses. Todos eles quer em Batávia, actual Jacarta, quer no actual Ceilão, muitos dos descendentes de marinheiros e soldados holandeses quiseram ficar portugueses e tomaram nomes portugueses, não querem nada com essa memória e com essa ancestralidade cultural holandesa.

Aliás, as marcas são muito pequenas. Eu falo tailandês, estive vários anos na Tailândia, e não há semana que não encontre uma expressão portuguesa já muito corrompida. Perguntaria quantos termos holandeses terão ficado na actual Indonésia.

E o caso inglês e holandês, são casos de companhias, são companhias de accionistas. O império, de jure, inglês na Ásia é do Século XIX. Antes eram iniciativas de uma empresa, de uma companhia, que se chamava Companhia das Índias Orientais. O mesmo acontecia com os holandeses.

A presença portuguesa é efectiva e desenvolve-se em vectores profundíssimos, não é só uma presença de estado, económica e comercial. É uma presença religiosa, cultural e de populações que passam a ser portuguesas, dentro e fora dos limites do próprio império português. Isto é um caso único daí que para muitos ocidentais se consegue demonstrar que há actualmente – isto pode parecer um pouco exagerado – um império. Já lhe chamaram império informal ou império invisível, mas há um império invisível português na Ásia que tem a ver com todas estas comunidades católicas, que continuam vivas, algumas com alguma influência, e que Portugal infelizmente não acompanha, porque são vectores poderosíssimos de relacionamento com os estados onde prosperam estas comunidades.

Hoje em dia temos comunidades em vários pontos da Ásia que reivindicam ser descendentes dos portugueses. O Governo português faz alguma coisa para cultivar estes laços? Que mais poderia ou deveria ser feito?

Poderia fazer muito, creio que deveria. Da mesma forma que a Assembleia da República, há cerca de um ano, aprovou a concessão da nacionalidade portuguesa a sefarditas que façam testemunho e prova da sua ancestralidade portuguesa – é claro que não poderíamos fazê-lo de uma forma despreocupada – mas julgo que se deveria estudar, devia-se conhecer e de uma forma, mesmo que fosse simbólica, restituir parte da cidadania portuguesa.

Até ao século XIX a cidadania antiga portuguesa era para todo aquele que fosse católico, vivesse ou não em domínio português e que fosse leal, de uma certa forma, ao Rei de Portugal que era o responsável pelo padroado português no Oriente. Todos eles se consideravam portugueses. Subitamente há uma revolução em 1820, fazem uma Constituição escrita a dizer que são portugueses os cidadãos nascidos em Portugal... Essa gente sofre desde então uma certa orfandade, porque eles consideram-se, e legitimamente, na sua perspectiva, portugueses.

Portanto caberia ao Estado português tentar encontrar uma fórmula e sobretudo investir um bocadinho mais. Creio que a Igreja portuguesa poderia ser neste caso apoiada, e todas as organizações católicas, que enviam tantos jovens para África, poderiam ajudar. Há pouco tempo uma Cátia Ferreira esteve em Malaca, professora de português, e tinha centenas de miúdos a querer aprender português.

O Governo português poderia enviar – e isto custaria menos que um dos milhares de bolsas da FCT – uns 20 professores primários, professores de português básico, para o Bangladesh, para as nossas comunidades portugueses no Myanmar, para os bairros católicos de Banguecoque, para tanto lado onde há uma fome imensa de aprendizagem da língua portuguesa, porque eles consideram-se portugueses. São portugueses, mas não têm cidadania, não são ouvidos, nem se quer, julgo eu, para nosso mal, haverá muitas pessoas nas Necessidades que tenham sequer a percepção de que este problema existe. 

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"Asia Bibi's imprisonment is a political and not a legal issue"

Archbishop Joseph Coutts. Foto: Edgar Sousa/Renascença

This is a full transcript of my interview with Archbishop Joseph Coutts, of Karachi, Pakistan, about the situation of Christians in Pakistan, the Blasphemy laws and Asia Bibi.
The news story, in Portuguese, can be found here.

Transcrição integral da entrevista ao Arcebispo Joseph Coutts, de Karachi, sobre a situação dos cristãos no Paquistão, a lei da blasfémia e Asia Bibi. A reportagem pode ser vista aqui.

Occasionally we hear stories of persecution coming out of Pakistan, bombings, killings and so on. But what is life like for Christians on a daily basis in your country?

Unfortunately the news that gets out is all the negative news.

When you use the word persecution, I'd just like to clarify that, if you mean persecution by the State or the government is persecuting the Christians, that is not the case.

Of course, as a small religious minority in Pakistan, we have always faced discrimination and are trying to fight against it, things like that were always there, there were always difficulties. But what we are experiencing now, that you are hearing about, the bombing of churches and attacking of Christians, that is a new phenomenon; it’s a new experience for us.

It was a traumatic experience when it happened the first time, in 2001, just after the Americans began bombing Afghanistan, after 9/11, in October. Shortly after that the reaction was very strong, because thousands of Afghan refugees started arriving in Pakistan and all the pictures of women and children crying... Two angry young men, Muslims, entered a church and just started shooting on a Sunday morning, they killed 14 Christians and injured many others.

That was the first time really that Muslims came and attacked a church! We never had that before. Since then we have had even worse experiences. Just this year two more churches were bombed. So this is not coming from the government, it is coming from those extremist groups who have their own agenda and who are a threat even to our Government and other moderate Muslims.

Do you feel that the Government does all it can to protect you?

The Government itself is not in a strong position.

Finally, last year in June 2014 the Government took the decision and the army launched a very big offensive involving about 30 thousand soldiers, with air support, in the mountains bordering Afghanistan, where many of these extremists have found a very good refuge. It's a very difficult terrain, very difficult to control, and this is where they had their factories, producing their homemade bombs, the suicide jackets and things like that. The army action is still ongoing, and we hear reports that there has been some success, but it’s a very slippery adversary, they can very easily slip across the border into Afghanistan, until the heat is off, regroup and start again. So it is a very tricky, difficult and dangerous situation we are in.

Take the current time, Ramadan. Does it affect Christians at all? Are they still free to eat in public during the day, for example?

We see that overall society in Pakistan is becoming more and more Islamised. In this sense, and this is a good example, during Ramadan we see a gradual increasing in the position of Islamic rules that eating houses should be closed and nobody should be found eating during the time of Ramadan, whether Christian or Muslim, and a few years ago it was not so. So there is hardly an option left.

Of course, being Pakistani Christians we are aware of this and we wouldn't want to desecrate or show disrespect for this very deeply religious activity of fasting.

Is there a difference between the city and the countryside? Or from region to region?

I think there are certain areas where there is more prejudice. I am in the large city of Karachi, in the South, which is our largest city, with a population which is easily twice that of Portugal, a big commercial and industrial city, very cosmopolitan, with people of different ethnic groups, many Hindus there - unlike other parts of Pakistan. Things had always been more tolerant in Karachi, while in other areas, specially the rural areas, where the imam still a strong religious and leadership role, with the use of the mosque loudspeaker, if the imam happens to be a fanatic it becomes very easy for him to use the loudspeaker to rouse the sentiments of the people, and this is what has happened not only in villages but also in cities where a false blasphemy accusation.

If the imam takes it up and announces it over the city or the village mosque, then even the Muslims who are sitting neutral, if they hear that the holy book has been desecrated, or the name of the holy prophet has been maligned there is an emotional reaction.

If you were approached by a Muslim seeking conversion and baptism, how would you handle the situation?

Nowadays we would handle it very carefully, with great caution, because it could also well be a trap, and that has also happened, people coming just to try and get us into trouble.

But basically our task, as Christians is not to convert people, but to be witnesses to our faith, to show what it means for us to be Christian, and to be Christian in that particular milieu, and I think much of what we do and say is reflected in all the institutions we have. The Church is very strong in the field of education, we have hundreds of schools, we are generally highly respected and there are many Muslims in our school, many of our teachers, together with Christians, the staff is common. For example, in Karachi we have only one Catholic doctor. The medical advisor is a Hindu and nearly all the other doctors are Muslims. It is known as the Holy Family hospital and it is well known.

In this respect, in terms of conversions and baptisms, for example, do you find that the more informal Protestant churches have more freedom? And does that present difficulties for you?

The freedom is there, but if you misuse it you get into trouble.

Let's be very clear... Muslims are very sensitive about this idea of conversion. When the blasphemy law was passed they wanted to pass another law that if a Muslim changes his religion, he should be declared an apostate and killed. It was not made into law, but it shows you that the thinking is already there.

Are Christians the most oppressed religious minority in Pakistan, or do other groups have it worse than you?

There is a group called the Ahmadis, or Mirzais. The Ahmadis say they are Muslims, but officially they were declared non-Muslims in the 70s, and they say that is not fair. So this is really an internal theological problem there, which makes it very difficult for us to interfere in any way, not being Muslims. They say they are Muslims, but Pakistan is the only country, I guess, where they have officially been declared non-Muslims, they are really being persecuted.

  

The fact the Pakistan is such a homogenously Sunni Muslim country, does that bring you closer to Hindus, Shiites, etc? 

I don't know whether you would call it a homogenous Sunni country... We have a very large minority of Shiites. I don't know the exact figures, but certainly not less than 20%, which is not a small minority. Then there are also other branches of the Shiite movement.

Where the problem is coming from, from the religious point of view, is not from all the Sunnis, it is from some branches. For example, we have the Wahhabis, the Deobandis, these are all Sunni groups. But Wahhabi Islam is the kind of Islam you find in Saudi Arabia, and it is a very narrow and restricted form of Islam. It is the Wahhabis, usually, who are very intolerant and do not easily accept the Shiites and other small groups, like the Ismailis within the Shiites.

Would you say that Wahabbiism is a relatively new phenomenon in Pakistan? Is this a different form of Islam than your father would have recognized in Muslim communities?

This kind of Islam has grown in the last couple of decades. We never had this before. It has come up... There are a number of factors, but this form of Jihadi Islam, promotion of the idea of Jihad, this happened when the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan in 1979 and then that threw a lot of fear into the Western world. 

Remember that is 79/80 the Soviet Union was still a superpower; in Europe you still had the Berlin Wall. So what it meant was that Afghanistan had fallen to communism, and Pakistan might be next. “So stop the communists!” Because if Pakistan fell, it meant an opening to the Gulf and to the source of the Western world's oil, so the USA, with Saudi Arabia and with our government said they better stop the communists right there, and they found the people to do the fighting, the extremist groups. 

The idea of Jihad was officially promoted. Jihad in the sense of taking up weapons and fighting the enemy. The enemy were the atheists, the communists who had entered Afghanistan, a country that is 100% Muslim. So it really appealed to any believing Muslim: Stop atheism, and you are protecting your brother Muslims. So hundreds of young men were trained, with American and Saudi help, to go and fight in Afghanistan.

So what happened to the arms that came in? Given it’s a country with so much corruption, a good percentage went into the black market, into the hands of criminals, drug dealers, into the hands of political parties, and others. With the result that nowadays Pakistan is afloat with small arms, it is very easy to obtain even hand grenades, submachine guns and things like that.

Some of these groups are better armed than our police force. So it is really a big challenge for our government. Our police was not trained in this kind of warfare, using suicide bombings, which most Muslims say is Haram, forbidden, just like in Christianity. But they justify it.

So there are strange things happening within Islam, and what is dangerous is that these groups which were quite isolated and had different agendas, such as Boko Haram, Isis, and here you had the Afghan Taliban, now you also have the Pakistani Taliban, you have Al-Qaeda, it seems they are spreading a new kind of Islam that was not there.  

Has there been an attempt by the more traditional Islamic forces of the Indian subcontinent to try and counter the influence of this Jihadi Islam, and is there any chance they will succeed?

They may be few in number, but they are well armed and well supported. From where exactly, I wouldn't know, and that is what our government would like to know. 

You see the Madrassa, which has been an Islamic institution for centuries, was just a school where you studied the Koran, but when 9/11 came and we had these issues, many madrassas were used as breeding grounds for the selection of young men to be brainwashed, religiously, to go and fight.

And up to now we don't know how many new madrassas just sprang up during those days. Our present government is trying to control that, and to see what is being taught in these madrassas, because many of the problems arise from there. They are fertile ground to recruit young men with the idea of Jihad. 

Are there any high ranking Christians in the Armed forces, police forces, judiciary, for example?

The highest army officer we have is a two star general, just one, but we do have others up to the rank of colonel, a few brigadiers, many majors.

So you would not say that Christians are kept out of the armed forces...

No, but I would say it is impossible to have the Chief of Staff as a Christian... And officially our Constitution says that the President and the Prime minister have to be Muslim. 

Of course you have Christian politicians...

We have a minister now, a federal minister for ports and shipping. 

So there is some participation in the Public, military and political life, for example.

Yes, there is, there is. 

We have heard so much about the blasphemy laws, for so many years now, has anything at all been done to at least reduce their harm?

Ever since this law was introduced, we as Christians have been protesting.

Of course it brings an immediate emotional reaction. The point that has finally got across to the Muslims who did not want this law abolished is not just the abolition of the law but the way the law is framed, that we need safeguards to prevent the misuse of this law, which is what has been happening all along.

I think there is more awareness now in the country. Earlier it was just not accepted that what was happening was that the law was being misused to settle personal enmities, jealousy and other things, not just to get people into trouble, but even to get them killed. And there is talk, more and more, of putting in some safeguards to prevent this from happening.

Which you would consider a success?

It’s something, definitely! Because things are bad, the way it is being misused.

Do you have any idea how many people in general are in prison at the moment because of the blasphemy laws?

There are statistics, but I don't want to give the wrong figures at the moment. There are many Christians, but many Muslims as well.

But are we talking about dozens or hundreds?

Not hundreds, but certainly dozens.

Because this affects not only Christians...

The law is for everybody! And at the moment, statistically, there are more Muslims in jail for blasphemy than Christians.

The Government has now passed a law stating that the first thing to do is to have the person examined for his mental state of mind, because some of the cases have happened with people who were not mentally sound. It is very easy to want to kill such a person, so the person first has to undergo a psychological test.

Nobody has ever been executed because of a blasphemy law, but it is still life threatening just to be accused, is it not?

Yes, that is right. The law has not yet executed anybody for Blasphemy, but all the killings have been extra-judicial and they have been like lynchings. The emotions take over and before the person has a chance to clear his name, it is too late.

Sometimes even after acquittal...

That has also happened. A few years ago there was a case of a 13 or 14 year old boy accused of Blasphemy, of having written very bad words on the wall of a mosque. Finally, when the case came up in the high court it was proved that the boy was hardly literate and that it was impossible for him to have written those kinds of words. He was rightly acquitted by the high court, but the fanatics kept screaming for his life. There was an attempt to kill him. With him were his two uncles, who were also accused. They killed one, in a drive-by shooting by two Muslims on a motorcycle, and the boy and the other uncle were slightly injured. They had to be hidden and were finally given asylum in Germany, I don't know where they are now. This was over 10 years ago. They were Christians.

Of course the most famous victim of the blasphemy laws has been Asia Bibi, what news is there of her? Is she ill?

I wouldn't be able to give you up to date condition of Asia Bibi, I am right down in Karachi and she is up North, about 1300 km away, our Justice and Peace Commission is handling the case, with a number of NGO's supporting, but I don't have the latest information, so it would not be fair to say anything right now.

When Western governments and influential figures speak about her case and put pressure on the Pakistani government, might this be counterproductive?

Yes, because you should understand that it is not just the government. The Government is not strong. This kind of extremist fanaticism is very strong, in the sense that if you are the judge you will be threatened, and you will be very careful before going against an existing decision of the court for the death penalty.

A few years back we had a parliamentarian, a very fine lady, a Muslim, who had said she would put in a petition in Parliament to review the blasphemy law. The intention was, ultimately, to abolish it. When some fanatics came to know this they started threatening her, and the threats were taken seriously.

She being a very capable lady, a parliamentarian and otherwise very knowledgeable, was appointed an ambassador to another country, to protect her. She is back now after a few years.

So that is how it is. It is not the government alone that has the power to take the decision. They have the power, but if they make the decision they also fear the reaction.

Why is she even still in jail? Is it a legal issue, or a political issue?

It is more political, and it is fear of the extremists.

I'll give you another example. Shortly after Asia Bibi was condemned to death, by the lower court and not yet by the higher court, it was none other than the governor of the most powerful province of Pakistan who, being a very fair minded person, a Muslim, went to the jail to visit Asia Bibi and suggested she write an appeal to the President of the Republic of Pakistan, because the President has the power to commute a death sentence. And he told her not to worry, because he would take her appeal personally and present it to the president. 

When that appeared in the press the next day, the fanatics went mad! Who was the President of the Republic to grant pardon to somebody who has insulted the prophet? The best remedy is death!

So when you are up against this kind of thinking, and these extremists are not only ready to kill, they are ready to die. And that is where you have this whole thing of suicide bombing.

Do you believe she will be freed, eventually?

That would only be a guess. The efforts continue, and that won't stop.

You were born before partition...

As many people were!

And is your family originally from Amritsar, where you were born?

No, my parents are originally from further South, from a place called Goa.

(Edgar Sousa/Renascença)

When there was partition and your family found themselves in Pakistan, a new country formed especially for the Muslim community, did it ever occur to them or to any Christians who found themselves in that situation, to move away? Did it occur to them that things might reach this situation?

No. Because nearly all the Christians in Pakistan were already where they are. My father had an option, because he was working in a multinational company and if he had wanted to stay in India he could have asked to be transferred to Delhi, or somewhere else, but he just continued in Lahore. So there was no question there, and I think most of the Christians were quite happy.

Remember that at that time the founder of Pakistan, Mohammed Ali Jinnah had made a beautiful speech, where he said to the Parliament: “You are free to go to the mosque, to the temple or to any place of worship. What you believe has nothing to do with the State. We must all now learn to be Pakistanis first”, which was very reassuring. So the stress was not on being Muslim or non-Muslim, but on being Pakistanis in the new country.

At that time, I can only imagine, because I was a couple of years old, everybody must have been very happy with that. But what we have been seeing, as things have been developing, the idea of Pakistan as a homeland for Muslims, as a modern democratic state… Now we hear the extremists saying they don't want democracy, it is a Western concept, they want a Caliphate, an Islamic State, which is something completely different from what the founding fathers of Pakistan had in mind. 

And that is where the real clash is. It is not Muslim-Christian, it is a whole new ideology, and these extremists are basically against the State. When they attack us it is to embarrass the state. 

If things don't improve within the next few years, if they get worse, as is happening in many Middle Eastern countries, for example, is there a future for Christians in Pakistan?

Some already think that there is no future. 

A number of Christians, a few hundred perhaps, have already found refuge in Sri Lanka, because visas are not too difficult to obtain, a few hundred fled to Thailand, precisely because they see no future. But for me, personally, we should not give up hope.

If there is a young couple who tell you they are thinking of leaving, do you discourage them from going?

Yes I would. Because I think they also have very simple ideas, just as you have these migrants coming to Europe, crossing the Mediterranean. They have an idea that things will be very easy once they go abroad. I would never advise anybody to do that. There have been extreme cases, where people have been threatened for various reasons, where we have supported them, as individuals to seek refuge. There are other examples of enlightened Muslims, who have spoken against extremism... 

I remember when Osama Bin Laden was still alive and was considered a hero, and he declared a Jihad against all the Americans, and all non-Muslims, and there was a good imam who gave a very good speech, a very good talk, explaining what Jihad really means, and he said this is not Jihad, only a legitimate authority can declare Jihad and you have to be very clear who the enemy is, and he gave very good, logical reasons. Within a week he was killed by a suicide bomber. So it is not just a question of being threatened. Most sensible people, moderate people, who want to live peaceful lives, regardless of their religion, at the moment, are under threat in Pakistan.

Is moving to India an option?

A number of Hindus have considered that option, they would feel more welcome there, especially with the present government in India.

So your family is from Goa, do you trace your history to the presence of the Portuguese in Goa? Were your ancestors converted by the Portuguese?

I wouldn't know exactly. They say that when the Portuguese arrived the Franciscans were already in Goa. So it is not as simple as that. Because Christianity was, for sure, already there since the second century, lower down in Kerala.

They say they found a cross identical to the St. Thomas cross in Goa recently. There is no historical evidence, but they say that St. Thomas and St. Bartholomew went to that coastal area. The whole area was a port, and a port brings all sorts of people together. There were Armenian Christians who were traders, Christians from Persia, and other parts, who travelled this coastal area. And usually in a coastal area you get a mixture of different kinds of people. 

So it is not very clear at what point Christianity arrived. It certainly developed much more when the Portuguese arrived, it became much stronger. 

Is there a memory of the first conversion in your family?

Because we were away from Goa, and even for me Goa is nothing more than a tourist spot, although I do have first cousins there, much of my family is in different parts of the World. Canada, a brother settled in Sweden, so really I have been away from my roots since birth.

We hear so many appeals from the Middle East, Iraq, Syria, from Patriarchs, Archbishops, for help. But what exactly can we do, for example, to help the Pakistani Christians?

If you are talking about financial help, I would say you are already doing it, through Aid to the Church in Need. I am not here to collect funds, but to create awareness, at the invitation of ACN. 

You are on the ground, you see how the money is spent and the effects of donations made here...

Definitely, in Pakistan, Aid to the Church in Need has been a very good benefactor for many years, building churches, convents, the education of seminarians for the priesthood. Any other pastoral needs, ACN has been there to help us and they still help us! 

As for the really big needs in Syria and Iraq, we pray to God that we don't reach a situation like that.

When you hear, in Pakistan, that people are praying for you. Does that help?

Yes. I was very moved yesterday when I went to Guimarães. The faith of the people, a living faith, and also the concern, the special prayers, with banners which depicted persecution. I recognized the scenes in two of them, and there were others from Iraq, Syria, Nigeria as well.

So the prayers and the sincerity of the people who assured us that they would continue praying, is something very moving, which I take back with me, to our people. 

The Archbishop and yours truly  (Edgar Sousa/Renascença)