Samaan’s misfortune

Fr. Saaman Shehata

A run of misfortune yesterday left one man dead in Egypt.

The bad luck began with the fact that Samaan Shehata was from Beni Suef, a poor region in Egypt. Because of that poverty, he had offered to go to Cairo to gather humanitarian aid which had been made available to his community.

The next stroke of bad luck was the fact that a crazy man – at least the police considered him crazy even though he was not diagnosed by a professional – saw him walking down the street and decided to give chase. Unfortunately the mad man had a knife, with which he stabbed him several times.

There were plenty of people on the street, but as luck would have it, nobody came to his aid.

But apparently Samaan did not die straight away. But he was terribly unfortunate in that it took over na hour for the ambulance to arrive and, when it did, he was unlucky in that the first responders decided not to attend to his wounds.

The police arrived later and partly due to misfortune, partly because they already knew the killer was a mad man – even though he had not been diagnosed by a professional – they didn’t set up a crime scene or investigate further.

In the midst of all this misfortune, there is one coincidence. All this happened on the same day that Aid to the Church in Need presented a report in Lisbon, where I live and work, which concluded that Christian persecution has reached levels never before seen in history. That means that we are worse off now than we were when the Romans had Christians devoured by wild animals in the arena.

What does this have to do with Samaan Shehata? It so happens that Samaan is a Coptic Christian priest. As a Coptic priest he would have been easily identifiable by his long black cassock and traditional hat. He would have been easy to spot by somebody – crazy or not – who would want to kill him. And as luck would have it there is no shortage of men in Egypt – crazy or not – who want to kill Christians.

On second thought, maybe none of this had anything to do with misfortune at all. Because this story is becoming all to common, it’s happened too many times before, to be put down to bad luck. Misfortune had nothing to do with the fact that bombs were placed in Egyptian churches in April this year, killing almost 50 people. Misfortune did not kill the pilgrims whose buses were pulled over, massacred by automatic gunfire by the side of the road.

Father Saaman’s parishioners have been left without a pastor. His wife – Coptic priests are traditionally married – is now a widow and his children orphans. But that isn’t bad luck either. It’s just one of the risks that comes with being a Christian in the Middle East.

Filipe d'Avillez 

"When I got home, my cassock was covered in blood"

This is a full transcript of my interview with bishop George Dodo, of Zaria, in northern Nigeria. The bishop speaks of life under the threat of Boko Haram, how he survived an attempt on his life in 2012 and also about the problem of polygamy in Nigeria. The news story, in Portuguese, can be read here.

Your diocese is one of the ones which suffers with the rebellion caused by Boko Haram. Geographically, where is it situated?

It is situated in the North. If you are familiar with Kaduna, which was the headquarters of the Northern Region, when the British colonized Nigeria, and is now the state capital of Kaduna State. Zaria is a little bit North of Kaduna.

Being in the North, the majority of the population is Muslim?

Yes.

Are most of the Christians originally from there, or mostly from the South?

It is a little bit cosmopolitan. While Muslims had the majority in the North, Kaduna, in particular , is the home of almost everybody in Nigeria, it is a smaller cosmopolitan city.

How exactly have the actions of Boko Haram affected your daily life and that of your faithful?

In terms of security, some people have had to relocate, so there is emigration out of the state, from Zaria in particular to places which are considered safer. This was noted especially in the last quarter of last year, up to when the elections were conducted last year until the elections were conducted on the 29th of May. At that time the fear of the unknown, in terms of the state of insecurity, followed by the kind of statements which came from the supporters of the present ruling party, with such utterances as "If Buhari doesn't win we will make sure we slaughter all of you", and considering what had happened in the past, a lot of people from the Southern part of the country thought it was better for them to go to where they feel safe.

At that time, I think practically every church worshipping community lost about 50% of its members. That is one aspect.

The economic life of the people has also been affected, because the people can no longer sell their goods, it means economically it is affecting the social life. Whereas people would sometimes go out in the evenings to relax, there have been instances where in the course of relaxation a bomb explosion goes off and lives are lost, so that has also affected the social life of the people.

In terms of education, a lot of schools barely managed to survive, because in tertiary institutions students felt it was better for them to remain where they feel safe, in the elementary, primary and secondary levels of education, parents would withdraw their children and take them to where they felt they were safer, so that has also had its own affects on the people.

In terms of worship, when it is time for worship, especially on Fridays and Sundays - Fridays for Muslims, Sundays for Christians - you have to have a security presence and while you are worshipping there is security outside, just to make sure nothing ugly happens. This has had a serious adverse affect on the generality of life in the Northern part of the country.

You mentioned "ugly things" happening... You had a very close experience with that yourself...

Yes I did.

It happened on a Sunday morning, 17th of June, 2012, the eve of my ordination anniversary. I was actually celebrating the second mass of the day, we started at 8h and somewhere around 8h30 or 8h45 we heard a very unusual sound, "boom", and the whole church was thrown into darkness. You could only feel electrical fittings from the ceiling falling down on us.

I think I must have blacked out at the time, so when I regained consciousness, all the alter servers were around me, asking me if I was ok. It was then that I became conscious again and said that I was ok. They said that it was not safe for me there, and that it was better for me to go out.

The sound was from a bomb explosion. When the dust that had been raised as a result of the explosion finally settled I could see through the windows that there were flames rising up to the roof of the building, and of course thick smoke. Then I heard parishioners saying "suicide bombers, suicide bombers".

What happened was that the suicide bomber had actually come in a car, heavily loaded with explosives. We had trained some of our young people to make sure that whoever was coming to these places of worship were properly screened. So they wanted to inspect the car, but the man said no, that he had an urgent message for the priest in the cathedral. So they said "ok, we don't dispute that, but nobody goes in here without us checking".

So I want to believe that the bomb must have been timed and he realised that he was wasting time, so he made as if he was reversing - even though he pretended to be a learner, with a capital L hanging on the car front and back - and then he came back at full speed, thinking he would just knock the gate off and get into the cathedral. But unfortunately for him that didn't happen, because the gate was solid, and the pillar on which it was hanging was very solid. So he hit the pillar and the explosives went off there and then.

I was reluctant to go out until I was dragged, and was trying to reach the commissioner of the police, but the number wasn't working. I was trying to reach the Governor, but the number wasn't working, I tried to reach some other security people but the numbers weren't working, until one parishioner, who happened to be working with the state security services introduced himself, he said bishop, this place is not safe for you, I am a security man, come, let’s go, I will go to my office and report what's happened.

So they dragged me out and then people came and told me there are dead bodies of our young boys, so I couldn't reach the place immediately, because of the fire, so only when everything started subsiding did I go and there were three of our young worshippers lying down, who were actually trying to check the vehicle.

So by the time one of the boys realised, and shouted "suicide bomber, everybody lie down", the bomb had exploded. These were the ones who died immediately.

At the end of the day, that very day, there were 13 dead bodies taken from the place. The motorcyclists who do that for commercial purposes, we tried to beg them to help us evacuate the wounded, to take them to the hospital, but they wouldn't even help. Instead they were sitting on their motorbikes, hands folded, and laughing. So it looks like they knew what was going on and were happy with what had happened and I was made to understand that in some parts of the town some of the supporters of the terrorists had gone into celebration because they had succeeded in reducing our number, including the big shot among them, who was inside the church. But unfortunately, when they started hearing my voice again, on the electronic media who were interviewing me, they knew that I was not dead, and so there was nothing for them to celebrate.

From this story you are telling me I get that this is not only a problem with some extremist elements like Boko Haram who are targeting Christians; there is a more general problem between the Christian minority and the Muslim majority. It may not be everyone, but there seems to be some members of the Muslim population who as you say were rejoicing with these acts.

Yes. Those who are not happy with the presence of Christianity, possibly they would celebrate in that sort of a situation. And you know, because of the frequency of the eruption of violent crises, in the Northern part of Nigeria, the sense of mutual trust between the Christians and the Muslims, which we had when we were growing up has more or less been destroyed.

Because when that happened, another church which is very close to the house where I was living, which is a Protestant church, was bombed within an interval of five minutes, and then in the city of Kaduna another Pentecostal church was bombed. So the youths, when they heard what had happened in Zaria, with the information that I had been killed, just went on a rampage.

You mean the Christian youth...

Yes.

So there was revenge.

It was a reprisal attack.

When you hear about these reprisal attacks, and there have been others, what do you say to your faithful?

We try to teach our people not to go on revenge missions. We understand life is sacred, at all costs. Even on the day we were bombed I was trying to save lives. When I got back to my house my cassock was soaked in blood. One young boy, I don't know where he came from, but he happened to be a Muslim, as soon as people saw him coming out of the Church they stormed at him. I said no, the most you can do is hand him over to the security, so I embraced him, trying to shield him and protect him, but because of the sort of beatings and stones used on him, he sustained some injuries and was bleeding. That is how my cassock was stained in blood.

Then I left again, because some people were already weeping because they had heard that I was dead. The security came and dragged me, saying that they could not control the crowd. I told them to let me go so that they could see my face, so that they would know that I was fully alive. So I left the boy in the hands of some young people and I showed him the security van was there, and I went to show my face to the people who were mourning and wanting to go on rampage, but I said "No. Just keep your calm, I am alive".

When they saw the blood they supposed I had been seriously injured, but I said "No, its not my blood. Its the blood of a young man I was trying to save. Now that you have seen my face, please listen to instructions from the security people, on the preventative measures you have to take in a situation like this. Because you never can tell."

I later realised that there were some individuals who had also come with explosives, but unfortunately for them they were identified. What happened is left to be imagined, because in that kind of a situation, emotions usually take the place of common sense and reason.

Your grace, this was in 2012, since then there has been a concerted effort with neighbouring countries to try and wipe out the threat of Boko Haram. It has been presented by the government as working, and being successful, do you agree? Has the situation improved on the ground?

I think to a certain extent I would need to congratulate the government, because they have been able to demystify the mind-set of the Boko Haram people. Initially, when this started, it was like they were invisible human beings. It was not until concerted efforts began to yield good results and they started arresting some of them, who in the course of interrogation would also reveal certain information to the security people. So it was at that level that demystifying the belief that they were invisible people began to take place.

Now the present government has been able even to go into the forest, which has been their major hideout, or enclave, where they sit, plan and go out to execute. And possibly, whoever has been there suppliers and financiers, the ammunition that they use and the resources they use to pay themselves and others to go into destructive mentalities. That was a no-go area, but thanks be to God, with the present government, and I want to believe, that the previous government which was replaced on May 29th started making the moves and advancing money for the supply of modern weaponry, now some of those things have started arriving and that has allowed the Nigerian military to really hit the Boko Haram people hard.

They are able to get into the forest and kill some of them, and some of them scatter. They have been able to recover many of the towns and suburban areas which had been under their control. So that shows that there is some success being achieved in the war against the insurgency.

Recently a Nigerian bishop floated the idea of an amnesty for fighters, to try and draw out those who are not convinced by the ideology and weaken Boko Haram. Do you agree with this approach?

Forgiveness is God's grace, or divine gift, and especially beneficial for those who realise their actions probably are misguided and have very deep regrets for whatever they have done in the past. And deep down in them there is this resolution never to allow the past to repeat itself, either in the present or in the future. Whenever these people are identified and you can see this kind of remorse in them, I wouldn't say no to that.

But to grant amnesty people have to make themselves identifiable. Then you know who you are talking to. But for an enemy whose face you do not know, how can you talk about amnesty?

It is when you see the face, and you are able to talk face to face, that you are able to see, from the body language, and movement, and gestures, whether this person really deserves this amnesty you are talking about. I know that in Nigeria some people have tried to equate the request for amnesty for Boko Haram with what happened with the militants in the Niger Delta. Destruction of human life is destruction of human life. But the scenario, I think, is a bit different. With the Niger delta militants, you are dealing with people you know. You know their faces, you can call their name, you know where they come from, you know who their parents are, and you can sit around a table with them. That is a different scenario compared to Boko Haram, whose faces you do not know, you don't know who is their mastermind, who is their leader, except video clips you can find on the internet. Apart from the face of Shekau, who has always been in the newspapers, who else, can somebody confidently say is a Boko Haram person?

That is why at the beginning I said they are a kind of invisible people. So if you want to talk about amnesty, which will be the fruits of an initiative towards dialogue, dialogue to be able to understand and then to find a common path, that will lead to a resolution. If you don't have that kind of person, how can you talk about amnesty?

I'd like to ask a couple of questions, changing topic, about the Synod for the family. We hear a lot about polygamy as a specifically African problem, is this a case in Nigeria?

There are two categories of polygamists. One category is those who embraced Christianity after they were already in polygamous marriages, but normally the stance of the Church will have been explained to them, and many of them understood it and, because they really wanted the sacrament, discussed it amongst themselves, the husband and the number of wives he has and once they reach that conclusion that they are all eyeing for heaven, and if this will stop us accepting this other way, then you choose whatever you wish. To have your marriage blessed in the church, we will stay for the sake of our children, no marital relations between us again, we are staying. And whatever the husband is able to contribute he does. There are situations where the husband still gives something for the upkeep, and they are happy with themselves.

Then there are those who I call deliberate polygamists. They are the ones who have been in the Church even a long time before they got married, then, for reasons best know to them, one of which would be that because my wife has only given birth to female children, and in my own culture my house is not complete unless I have a male child to inherit whatever I leave behind and carry on my family name, that has forced some people to go into a second marriage, to become polygamists, and that keeps them from the sacraments.

But there are those who accept that, whether it is a male or female child, a child is a precious gift from God, and there is no amount of money in this world which can buy one. So they find themselves in this situation, they are kept away from the sacraments, it is a free choice, but an unfortunate one.

But it is not something commonplace, no. So the people I really have sympathy for would be people who were polygamous before Christianity met them, and they have that difficulty, because you find some where the husband says that if that is what the Church wants, and I know in conscience that I have never had any quarrel with any of these women, none of them has offended me, and I have offended none of them, how can I just tell them to go?

Instead of offending their conscience and telling somebody to go, they will simply remain like that. I would hope that one day the Holy Spirit will reveal something to the church to handle these cases of polygamy. But for those who know what it is, and on the day they married their first wives knew the commitment they were getting into, just for social and cultural reasons, now say they are going to break that commitment, there is something wrong somewhere along the line.

How many generations back did your family embrace Christianity?

My father became a Christian when he was a young adult, so in my own village he is the first generation of Christians.

Bishop Dodo visited Portugal at the invitation of the local branch of Aid to the Church in Need.

“The war in Syria has made our faith stronger”

This is a full transcript of the interview with Sr. Annie Demarjian, a Syrian nun who was recently in Portugal at the invitation of the local branch of Aid to the Church in Need. The news report, in Portuguese, can be found here.

Transcrição integral da entrevista à irmã Annie Demarjian, uma freira síria que esteve recentemente em Portugal a convite da Ajuda à Igreja que Sofre. A reportagem está aqui.

Could you explain to us where you live and work you do?

I am Sister Annie Demerjian, from Syria, with the Sisters of Jesus and Mary.

We have been working in Aleppo since 2004.

Who do mostly work with?

We are working with a school, with the school of the Greek-Catholic Diocese, my sisters and myself, and when the war started we also started doing emergency work with families.

Are you from Aleppo?

No, I am from Damascus, but my mission was in Aleppo.

Do you still have family in Damascus?

Yes.

You have been in Aleppo since 2004. How much has life changed since the beginning of the war?

Since the war began, the situation of displacement within the country, mass flight to neighbouring countries, to Europe, as well as death and injury, loss of infrastructure in the country, as you know. Lots of change happened. Many houses were destroyed and damaged, factories, as you all know, were looted, many places of employment were destroyed and it is difficult to repair them. Schools and hospitals either destroyed or, sometimes if not, the systems have been terribly degraded.

Those who want to stay, or can't leave, are in a real state of poverty. Life is not easy now, and it is very difficult to maintain daily life in Aleppo, especially. Electricity and water are cut off for long hours. The daily life is not easy for families.

What does your congregation do to help?

From the beginning of the crisis, our sisters were holding us in prayer all over the world. And they try to help as much as they can so we can stand with our families. My congregation, as well as Aid to the Church in Need, which is helping us a lot. At least we make the suffering of our families less.

We know that this war has affected the country materially, and there has been terrible loss of life, refugees, etc. How has it affected people's faith, and more specifically the faith of the Christians?

There is a real spiritual growth and the families need the support and welcome of the liturgy and prayer that the churches offer. They are full when prayer or mass is announced. I think also that the crisis has made our faith stronger, and you can see that from the worship of the peopel, the way they pray, the way they trust the Lord, the way they have hope that one day there will be a ressurection.

You say there is hope that one day things will improve. But looking back, only in the past 100 years, you had the massacres of 1915, Simile in 1933, now the persecutions at the hands of ISIS... Do you believe Christians will ever live in peace in this part of the world?

If you go back in the history of the Church, from the beginning we have always had difficult times and peaceful times. So what we are looking for is to live in peace and dialogue.

It is not easy... Always our dear Christians have been facing dangers and difficulties for the sake of Christ. If we really believe in Christ, then what does our life matter?

Pope Francis used an expression which is Ecumenism of Blood. There are so many different churches on the ground in the Middle East, not only Catholic but Orthodox, do you feel that the Christians have drawn closer together faced with these persecutions?

Yes, very much so, especially with the emergency help, they try to help eachother, when one Church has a good, they share it with other churches. Not only on the material level, also on the spirtiual level, every time we have common prayer for peace, for kidnapped people, so yes, this crisis has brought us closer and closer together.

One of the concerns is that this crisis will drive Christians away from the Middle East. What do you say when young people go to you and say they are trying to leave?

I just listen to them. It is not easy to say for them to stay or to go, because people have a capacity of holding this violence and some people who are leaving have their reasons. So we need to pray together and see what is the good for them and let them make their choices.

We hear so many appeals for help from the Christians in the Middle East, but what exactly can we do to help?

When you have difficulties it is very important to find somebody standing beside you. What we want more, the real intention is that people work for peace. For us as a congregation and as a group working with families, we felt that. We felt that we are not alone. Many people around the world are praying for us, supporting us with material things and even with their prayer. And this is the beauty of the Church. We are one body and when a small part of the body is suffering, the whole church is suffering. So we felt that our brothers are really suffering with us and they are always sending us messages. Sister, we are praying for you, for your communities, we are with you, today we are having mass and praying for you.

The concern for what is happening is beautiful. Maybe on the wider level, the good intention to work for peace and make people aware that we really want peace.

"Asia Bibi's imprisonment is a political and not a legal issue"

Archbishop Joseph Coutts. Foto: Edgar Sousa/Renascença

This is a full transcript of my interview with Archbishop Joseph Coutts, of Karachi, Pakistan, about the situation of Christians in Pakistan, the Blasphemy laws and Asia Bibi.
The news story, in Portuguese, can be found here.

Transcrição integral da entrevista ao Arcebispo Joseph Coutts, de Karachi, sobre a situação dos cristãos no Paquistão, a lei da blasfémia e Asia Bibi. A reportagem pode ser vista aqui.

Occasionally we hear stories of persecution coming out of Pakistan, bombings, killings and so on. But what is life like for Christians on a daily basis in your country?

Unfortunately the news that gets out is all the negative news.

When you use the word persecution, I'd just like to clarify that, if you mean persecution by the State or the government is persecuting the Christians, that is not the case.

Of course, as a small religious minority in Pakistan, we have always faced discrimination and are trying to fight against it, things like that were always there, there were always difficulties. But what we are experiencing now, that you are hearing about, the bombing of churches and attacking of Christians, that is a new phenomenon; it’s a new experience for us.

It was a traumatic experience when it happened the first time, in 2001, just after the Americans began bombing Afghanistan, after 9/11, in October. Shortly after that the reaction was very strong, because thousands of Afghan refugees started arriving in Pakistan and all the pictures of women and children crying... Two angry young men, Muslims, entered a church and just started shooting on a Sunday morning, they killed 14 Christians and injured many others.

That was the first time really that Muslims came and attacked a church! We never had that before. Since then we have had even worse experiences. Just this year two more churches were bombed. So this is not coming from the government, it is coming from those extremist groups who have their own agenda and who are a threat even to our Government and other moderate Muslims.

Do you feel that the Government does all it can to protect you?

The Government itself is not in a strong position.

Finally, last year in June 2014 the Government took the decision and the army launched a very big offensive involving about 30 thousand soldiers, with air support, in the mountains bordering Afghanistan, where many of these extremists have found a very good refuge. It's a very difficult terrain, very difficult to control, and this is where they had their factories, producing their homemade bombs, the suicide jackets and things like that. The army action is still ongoing, and we hear reports that there has been some success, but it’s a very slippery adversary, they can very easily slip across the border into Afghanistan, until the heat is off, regroup and start again. So it is a very tricky, difficult and dangerous situation we are in.

Take the current time, Ramadan. Does it affect Christians at all? Are they still free to eat in public during the day, for example?

We see that overall society in Pakistan is becoming more and more Islamised. In this sense, and this is a good example, during Ramadan we see a gradual increasing in the position of Islamic rules that eating houses should be closed and nobody should be found eating during the time of Ramadan, whether Christian or Muslim, and a few years ago it was not so. So there is hardly an option left.

Of course, being Pakistani Christians we are aware of this and we wouldn't want to desecrate or show disrespect for this very deeply religious activity of fasting.

Is there a difference between the city and the countryside? Or from region to region?

I think there are certain areas where there is more prejudice. I am in the large city of Karachi, in the South, which is our largest city, with a population which is easily twice that of Portugal, a big commercial and industrial city, very cosmopolitan, with people of different ethnic groups, many Hindus there - unlike other parts of Pakistan. Things had always been more tolerant in Karachi, while in other areas, specially the rural areas, where the imam still a strong religious and leadership role, with the use of the mosque loudspeaker, if the imam happens to be a fanatic it becomes very easy for him to use the loudspeaker to rouse the sentiments of the people, and this is what has happened not only in villages but also in cities where a false blasphemy accusation.

If the imam takes it up and announces it over the city or the village mosque, then even the Muslims who are sitting neutral, if they hear that the holy book has been desecrated, or the name of the holy prophet has been maligned there is an emotional reaction.

If you were approached by a Muslim seeking conversion and baptism, how would you handle the situation?

Nowadays we would handle it very carefully, with great caution, because it could also well be a trap, and that has also happened, people coming just to try and get us into trouble.

But basically our task, as Christians is not to convert people, but to be witnesses to our faith, to show what it means for us to be Christian, and to be Christian in that particular milieu, and I think much of what we do and say is reflected in all the institutions we have. The Church is very strong in the field of education, we have hundreds of schools, we are generally highly respected and there are many Muslims in our school, many of our teachers, together with Christians, the staff is common. For example, in Karachi we have only one Catholic doctor. The medical advisor is a Hindu and nearly all the other doctors are Muslims. It is known as the Holy Family hospital and it is well known.

In this respect, in terms of conversions and baptisms, for example, do you find that the more informal Protestant churches have more freedom? And does that present difficulties for you?

The freedom is there, but if you misuse it you get into trouble.

Let's be very clear... Muslims are very sensitive about this idea of conversion. When the blasphemy law was passed they wanted to pass another law that if a Muslim changes his religion, he should be declared an apostate and killed. It was not made into law, but it shows you that the thinking is already there.

Are Christians the most oppressed religious minority in Pakistan, or do other groups have it worse than you?

There is a group called the Ahmadis, or Mirzais. The Ahmadis say they are Muslims, but officially they were declared non-Muslims in the 70s, and they say that is not fair. So this is really an internal theological problem there, which makes it very difficult for us to interfere in any way, not being Muslims. They say they are Muslims, but Pakistan is the only country, I guess, where they have officially been declared non-Muslims, they are really being persecuted.

  

The fact the Pakistan is such a homogenously Sunni Muslim country, does that bring you closer to Hindus, Shiites, etc? 

I don't know whether you would call it a homogenous Sunni country... We have a very large minority of Shiites. I don't know the exact figures, but certainly not less than 20%, which is not a small minority. Then there are also other branches of the Shiite movement.

Where the problem is coming from, from the religious point of view, is not from all the Sunnis, it is from some branches. For example, we have the Wahhabis, the Deobandis, these are all Sunni groups. But Wahhabi Islam is the kind of Islam you find in Saudi Arabia, and it is a very narrow and restricted form of Islam. It is the Wahhabis, usually, who are very intolerant and do not easily accept the Shiites and other small groups, like the Ismailis within the Shiites.

Would you say that Wahabbiism is a relatively new phenomenon in Pakistan? Is this a different form of Islam than your father would have recognized in Muslim communities?

This kind of Islam has grown in the last couple of decades. We never had this before. It has come up... There are a number of factors, but this form of Jihadi Islam, promotion of the idea of Jihad, this happened when the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan in 1979 and then that threw a lot of fear into the Western world. 

Remember that is 79/80 the Soviet Union was still a superpower; in Europe you still had the Berlin Wall. So what it meant was that Afghanistan had fallen to communism, and Pakistan might be next. “So stop the communists!” Because if Pakistan fell, it meant an opening to the Gulf and to the source of the Western world's oil, so the USA, with Saudi Arabia and with our government said they better stop the communists right there, and they found the people to do the fighting, the extremist groups. 

The idea of Jihad was officially promoted. Jihad in the sense of taking up weapons and fighting the enemy. The enemy were the atheists, the communists who had entered Afghanistan, a country that is 100% Muslim. So it really appealed to any believing Muslim: Stop atheism, and you are protecting your brother Muslims. So hundreds of young men were trained, with American and Saudi help, to go and fight in Afghanistan.

So what happened to the arms that came in? Given it’s a country with so much corruption, a good percentage went into the black market, into the hands of criminals, drug dealers, into the hands of political parties, and others. With the result that nowadays Pakistan is afloat with small arms, it is very easy to obtain even hand grenades, submachine guns and things like that.

Some of these groups are better armed than our police force. So it is really a big challenge for our government. Our police was not trained in this kind of warfare, using suicide bombings, which most Muslims say is Haram, forbidden, just like in Christianity. But they justify it.

So there are strange things happening within Islam, and what is dangerous is that these groups which were quite isolated and had different agendas, such as Boko Haram, Isis, and here you had the Afghan Taliban, now you also have the Pakistani Taliban, you have Al-Qaeda, it seems they are spreading a new kind of Islam that was not there.  

Has there been an attempt by the more traditional Islamic forces of the Indian subcontinent to try and counter the influence of this Jihadi Islam, and is there any chance they will succeed?

They may be few in number, but they are well armed and well supported. From where exactly, I wouldn't know, and that is what our government would like to know. 

You see the Madrassa, which has been an Islamic institution for centuries, was just a school where you studied the Koran, but when 9/11 came and we had these issues, many madrassas were used as breeding grounds for the selection of young men to be brainwashed, religiously, to go and fight.

And up to now we don't know how many new madrassas just sprang up during those days. Our present government is trying to control that, and to see what is being taught in these madrassas, because many of the problems arise from there. They are fertile ground to recruit young men with the idea of Jihad. 

Are there any high ranking Christians in the Armed forces, police forces, judiciary, for example?

The highest army officer we have is a two star general, just one, but we do have others up to the rank of colonel, a few brigadiers, many majors.

So you would not say that Christians are kept out of the armed forces...

No, but I would say it is impossible to have the Chief of Staff as a Christian... And officially our Constitution says that the President and the Prime minister have to be Muslim. 

Of course you have Christian politicians...

We have a minister now, a federal minister for ports and shipping. 

So there is some participation in the Public, military and political life, for example.

Yes, there is, there is. 

We have heard so much about the blasphemy laws, for so many years now, has anything at all been done to at least reduce their harm?

Ever since this law was introduced, we as Christians have been protesting.

Of course it brings an immediate emotional reaction. The point that has finally got across to the Muslims who did not want this law abolished is not just the abolition of the law but the way the law is framed, that we need safeguards to prevent the misuse of this law, which is what has been happening all along.

I think there is more awareness now in the country. Earlier it was just not accepted that what was happening was that the law was being misused to settle personal enmities, jealousy and other things, not just to get people into trouble, but even to get them killed. And there is talk, more and more, of putting in some safeguards to prevent this from happening.

Which you would consider a success?

It’s something, definitely! Because things are bad, the way it is being misused.

Do you have any idea how many people in general are in prison at the moment because of the blasphemy laws?

There are statistics, but I don't want to give the wrong figures at the moment. There are many Christians, but many Muslims as well.

But are we talking about dozens or hundreds?

Not hundreds, but certainly dozens.

Because this affects not only Christians...

The law is for everybody! And at the moment, statistically, there are more Muslims in jail for blasphemy than Christians.

The Government has now passed a law stating that the first thing to do is to have the person examined for his mental state of mind, because some of the cases have happened with people who were not mentally sound. It is very easy to want to kill such a person, so the person first has to undergo a psychological test.

Nobody has ever been executed because of a blasphemy law, but it is still life threatening just to be accused, is it not?

Yes, that is right. The law has not yet executed anybody for Blasphemy, but all the killings have been extra-judicial and they have been like lynchings. The emotions take over and before the person has a chance to clear his name, it is too late.

Sometimes even after acquittal...

That has also happened. A few years ago there was a case of a 13 or 14 year old boy accused of Blasphemy, of having written very bad words on the wall of a mosque. Finally, when the case came up in the high court it was proved that the boy was hardly literate and that it was impossible for him to have written those kinds of words. He was rightly acquitted by the high court, but the fanatics kept screaming for his life. There was an attempt to kill him. With him were his two uncles, who were also accused. They killed one, in a drive-by shooting by two Muslims on a motorcycle, and the boy and the other uncle were slightly injured. They had to be hidden and were finally given asylum in Germany, I don't know where they are now. This was over 10 years ago. They were Christians.

Of course the most famous victim of the blasphemy laws has been Asia Bibi, what news is there of her? Is she ill?

I wouldn't be able to give you up to date condition of Asia Bibi, I am right down in Karachi and she is up North, about 1300 km away, our Justice and Peace Commission is handling the case, with a number of NGO's supporting, but I don't have the latest information, so it would not be fair to say anything right now.

When Western governments and influential figures speak about her case and put pressure on the Pakistani government, might this be counterproductive?

Yes, because you should understand that it is not just the government. The Government is not strong. This kind of extremist fanaticism is very strong, in the sense that if you are the judge you will be threatened, and you will be very careful before going against an existing decision of the court for the death penalty.

A few years back we had a parliamentarian, a very fine lady, a Muslim, who had said she would put in a petition in Parliament to review the blasphemy law. The intention was, ultimately, to abolish it. When some fanatics came to know this they started threatening her, and the threats were taken seriously.

She being a very capable lady, a parliamentarian and otherwise very knowledgeable, was appointed an ambassador to another country, to protect her. She is back now after a few years.

So that is how it is. It is not the government alone that has the power to take the decision. They have the power, but if they make the decision they also fear the reaction.

Why is she even still in jail? Is it a legal issue, or a political issue?

It is more political, and it is fear of the extremists.

I'll give you another example. Shortly after Asia Bibi was condemned to death, by the lower court and not yet by the higher court, it was none other than the governor of the most powerful province of Pakistan who, being a very fair minded person, a Muslim, went to the jail to visit Asia Bibi and suggested she write an appeal to the President of the Republic of Pakistan, because the President has the power to commute a death sentence. And he told her not to worry, because he would take her appeal personally and present it to the president. 

When that appeared in the press the next day, the fanatics went mad! Who was the President of the Republic to grant pardon to somebody who has insulted the prophet? The best remedy is death!

So when you are up against this kind of thinking, and these extremists are not only ready to kill, they are ready to die. And that is where you have this whole thing of suicide bombing.

Do you believe she will be freed, eventually?

That would only be a guess. The efforts continue, and that won't stop.

You were born before partition...

As many people were!

And is your family originally from Amritsar, where you were born?

No, my parents are originally from further South, from a place called Goa.

(Edgar Sousa/Renascença)

When there was partition and your family found themselves in Pakistan, a new country formed especially for the Muslim community, did it ever occur to them or to any Christians who found themselves in that situation, to move away? Did it occur to them that things might reach this situation?

No. Because nearly all the Christians in Pakistan were already where they are. My father had an option, because he was working in a multinational company and if he had wanted to stay in India he could have asked to be transferred to Delhi, or somewhere else, but he just continued in Lahore. So there was no question there, and I think most of the Christians were quite happy.

Remember that at that time the founder of Pakistan, Mohammed Ali Jinnah had made a beautiful speech, where he said to the Parliament: “You are free to go to the mosque, to the temple or to any place of worship. What you believe has nothing to do with the State. We must all now learn to be Pakistanis first”, which was very reassuring. So the stress was not on being Muslim or non-Muslim, but on being Pakistanis in the new country.

At that time, I can only imagine, because I was a couple of years old, everybody must have been very happy with that. But what we have been seeing, as things have been developing, the idea of Pakistan as a homeland for Muslims, as a modern democratic state… Now we hear the extremists saying they don't want democracy, it is a Western concept, they want a Caliphate, an Islamic State, which is something completely different from what the founding fathers of Pakistan had in mind. 

And that is where the real clash is. It is not Muslim-Christian, it is a whole new ideology, and these extremists are basically against the State. When they attack us it is to embarrass the state. 

If things don't improve within the next few years, if they get worse, as is happening in many Middle Eastern countries, for example, is there a future for Christians in Pakistan?

Some already think that there is no future. 

A number of Christians, a few hundred perhaps, have already found refuge in Sri Lanka, because visas are not too difficult to obtain, a few hundred fled to Thailand, precisely because they see no future. But for me, personally, we should not give up hope.

If there is a young couple who tell you they are thinking of leaving, do you discourage them from going?

Yes I would. Because I think they also have very simple ideas, just as you have these migrants coming to Europe, crossing the Mediterranean. They have an idea that things will be very easy once they go abroad. I would never advise anybody to do that. There have been extreme cases, where people have been threatened for various reasons, where we have supported them, as individuals to seek refuge. There are other examples of enlightened Muslims, who have spoken against extremism... 

I remember when Osama Bin Laden was still alive and was considered a hero, and he declared a Jihad against all the Americans, and all non-Muslims, and there was a good imam who gave a very good speech, a very good talk, explaining what Jihad really means, and he said this is not Jihad, only a legitimate authority can declare Jihad and you have to be very clear who the enemy is, and he gave very good, logical reasons. Within a week he was killed by a suicide bomber. So it is not just a question of being threatened. Most sensible people, moderate people, who want to live peaceful lives, regardless of their religion, at the moment, are under threat in Pakistan.

Is moving to India an option?

A number of Hindus have considered that option, they would feel more welcome there, especially with the present government in India.

So your family is from Goa, do you trace your history to the presence of the Portuguese in Goa? Were your ancestors converted by the Portuguese?

I wouldn't know exactly. They say that when the Portuguese arrived the Franciscans were already in Goa. So it is not as simple as that. Because Christianity was, for sure, already there since the second century, lower down in Kerala.

They say they found a cross identical to the St. Thomas cross in Goa recently. There is no historical evidence, but they say that St. Thomas and St. Bartholomew went to that coastal area. The whole area was a port, and a port brings all sorts of people together. There were Armenian Christians who were traders, Christians from Persia, and other parts, who travelled this coastal area. And usually in a coastal area you get a mixture of different kinds of people. 

So it is not very clear at what point Christianity arrived. It certainly developed much more when the Portuguese arrived, it became much stronger. 

Is there a memory of the first conversion in your family?

Because we were away from Goa, and even for me Goa is nothing more than a tourist spot, although I do have first cousins there, much of my family is in different parts of the World. Canada, a brother settled in Sweden, so really I have been away from my roots since birth.

We hear so many appeals from the Middle East, Iraq, Syria, from Patriarchs, Archbishops, for help. But what exactly can we do, for example, to help the Pakistani Christians?

If you are talking about financial help, I would say you are already doing it, through Aid to the Church in Need. I am not here to collect funds, but to create awareness, at the invitation of ACN. 

You are on the ground, you see how the money is spent and the effects of donations made here...

Definitely, in Pakistan, Aid to the Church in Need has been a very good benefactor for many years, building churches, convents, the education of seminarians for the priesthood. Any other pastoral needs, ACN has been there to help us and they still help us! 

As for the really big needs in Syria and Iraq, we pray to God that we don't reach a situation like that.

When you hear, in Pakistan, that people are praying for you. Does that help?

Yes. I was very moved yesterday when I went to Guimarães. The faith of the people, a living faith, and also the concern, the special prayers, with banners which depicted persecution. I recognized the scenes in two of them, and there were others from Iraq, Syria, Nigeria as well.

So the prayers and the sincerity of the people who assured us that they would continue praying, is something very moving, which I take back with me, to our people. 

The Archbishop and yours truly  (Edgar Sousa/Renascença)

Portuguese churches share Lenten collections with persecuted Christians

Archbishop of Évora, D. José Alves

At least two Portuguese dioceses will be setting their special Lenten collections aside to help persecuted Christians in the Middle East.

The archdiocese of Évora was the first to accept the proposal made by the Portuguese branch of Aid to the Church in Need, a Catholic charity which does work on the ground to help Christians of all denominations in desperate situations.

The president of ACN – Portugal, Catarina Martins, says that at least one more diocese has shown interest and will almost definitely follow the example of Évora, but she cannot say which, since the bishop has not confirmed officially.

The full amount which will be donated is not known for now, but by way of example, the archdiocese raised 20,000 euros in 2014 to help a congregation of nuns build a new convent, so the amount this year should be similar.

Évora is a large and historically important archdiocese in the South of Portugal, but the Alentejo region, which it serves, has a low proportion of practising Catholics and has also been particularly badly hit by the financial crisis which has affected the whole country for the past several years.

However, this show of solidarity with Middle Eastern Christians is a sign of solidarity with those in an even worse position. Mainstream news outlets highlighted the plight of Christians and Yezidis in the Summer, after the fall of Mosul and the surrounding areas to the hands of the Islamic State. But the persistence of ACN-Portugal, which has brought over important figures from the Middle Eastern Christian community, such as Melkite Patriarch Gregory III, archeparch Issam John Darwish, of the Melkite Archdiocese of Furzol, Zahle and the Bekaa and sister Hanan Youssef, has been instrumental in keeping the subject fresh in the minds of the Portuguese people.

The situation of Christians in the Middle East has also been extensively covered by Renascença, the country Catholic media group, which operates a website and four radio stations which, when taken together, lead the radio market in terms of share.